you know that meme where its the guy saying he prefers the original, and multiple options are thrown at him where he keeps saying “no the real original”
I feel like we have a case of that here, except its what Makes an American, and it continues getting reductive until you’ve narrowed it down to a Jingoistic or Ultranationalist/Manifest Destiny type WASP (White, Anglo-saxon heritage, Protestant faith christian)
It’s nationalistic propaganda, not woke
In the US, the brainwashing towards Fascist favorites like Nationalism starts when they’re still children.
They thought you knew that “all” was short for “all white people”
All straight, white, land owning Christian Men.
White men that is. Landowners. Rich white men.
I stand corrected
Hence all lives matter
They had to cut the last two words when they added “under god” in the 1950’s.
Not even. Oh wait sorry I forgot that they didnt consider certain groups like the disabled and queer people to be people
No no, liberty and justice for all [cishet white men]
There isn’t even “justice” for cis white men though - justice in the USA barely even exists any more. The greed and corruption runs so deep that the supreme court are all bribed or heavily biased, so I have no confidence whatsoever in the judicial system.
I’m a cis white man, and I’m working to get myself the hell out of this utterly fucked country as soon as I can because everybody in power is blatantly corrupt and there are no functional checks and balances any more.
you were SUPPOSED to internalize the unwavering loyalty to a distant concept of authority, not the principles of mutual goodness and existing within a community you woke little shit
I always thought the pledge of allegiance stood out as a bit of a strange brainwashing exercise for the free and fair democracy the United States seeks to be. In fact IMO the nationalism it represents and instils in Americans opened the door to MAGA.
I’m from a country which was under a Fascist dictatorship until 50 years ago - Portugal - and even though the place was a total shithole (so poor that it got Food Aid), the regime was massivelly into pushing Nationalism.
The Far-Right are usually the ones who love Nationalism (there really are no greater flag-shaggers than the Fascist Far-Right) and Militarism.
So, at least for me, things such as a Pledge Of Alliegance in schools in the US always sounded like the kind of brainwashing of children done in Fascist countries - maybe not as far as an organised regime Youth movement (like the “Hitler Youth” or the Portuguese “Mocidade Portuguesa”), but certainly partly in that direction.
That’s because it’s very strange. Most of the rest of the world thinks we are insane for it We only think of it as ‘a bit strange’ because we were brainwashed into doing it as children.
Yeah, I was incredulous when I first heard of the pledge being recited in schools. I couldn’t believe how often it was recited or how common the practice was. Surely it would be only a couple of times a year like the anthem was for me, I thought. Or only nationalistic private schools would do do it at the frequency I was told about.
America has always had a contradiction at it’s heart: It purports to represent high minded ideas about freedom, egalitarianism, peace, democracy, secular enlightenment ideals, etc… while simultaneously being none of those things for most of it’s history. A country built on genocide and slavery, a government that excluded nearly everyone from participating in it, extreme inequality, a war every few years, laws based on religious sentiments of the majority, etc…
That the story it tells itself is so at odds with it’s actual identity is a testament to the power of propaganda and self-delusion. I think part of how people try to resolve this contradiction is by refocusing the story to be about steady progress: We may not have always lived up to our ideals, but that was in the past, we learned from them, and got better, as they ignore the problems of today and even actively resist changes that they would applaud if they read it in a history book or saw it in a documentary.
It’s not wholly unique in this kind of narrative self-delusion, but I think America’s relative lack of longer term history and ethnic identity makes the story a more central part of it’s identity. The pledge is one part of this.
It’s not wholly unique in this kind of narrative self-delusion, but I think America’s relative lack of longer term history and ethnic identity makes the story a more central part of it’s identity. The pledge is one part of this.
This is exactly why the Republicans have been fighting so hard to whitewash history in our schools, they want people to continue to be unquestioningly loyal to the government, and believe the propaganda. You would think all the crackers in the South who want the Confederacy to ‘rise again’ would be against it, but it benefits them because it allows them to make slavery seem like it wasn’t so bad actually.
What makes American brainwashing somewhat unique is that it includes the notion of individuality, originality, free speech and personal uniqueness, whilst successfully managing to railroad all of those things within a set of acceptable parameters.
You’re encouraged to speak freely as long as you’re not communist or anti-American, terms which are then defined so broadly as to cover a whole world of reasonable opinions.
I know I’m in the minority, but I actually like the pledge, even if it’s reminiscent of authoritarianism (and I strongly believe it should be optional). But that’s because my interpretation was always “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA, and to the [ideals and values of the] republic for which it stands.” I viewed it as an affirmation of the commitment by myself to the “liberty and justice for all” we wanted, not as a statement of fact that no matter what the current leadership does, you should be loyal.
All that being said, I could see a contribution of the pledge to an environment of the nationalism or jingoism that led to MAGA. I just don’t blame the pledge; I blame the leaders, politicians, media personalities, and individuals that drove MAGA to become mainstream.
The biggest problem is that kids are reciting it without understanding the words they’re saying or the concepts they convey. When I was a little kid I was just repeating the syllables I was given, with no real idea about what it all meant*. Nobody should take any pledge until they can clearly explain what it means and what it means to them. And obviously a pledge should always be voluntary.
*Same as forcing a kid to go through the sacraments but I digress.
We actually had civics as part of our curriculum from first grade. I am Gen X. We had lessons in first grade about the meaning of the words. I grew up in an agricultural state and civics lessons were part of state mandated curriculum. They had a unit around election day, explaining what the lawn signs were about.
The lessons were very neutral. I mean teachers are heavily Democratic leaning and a conservative state mandated the curriculum. So they just talked about processes of democracy.
I really don’t think mandated civics education is a bad idea, really. I see many folks who share in the pain of wokeness, but feel totally helpless to act effectively because the entire apparatus of our democracy has not been made clear to them. Now that the apparatus is breaking, it’s hard to work together to fix it.
I don’t think most kids would pick up on that kind of nuance (or even most adults), but I agree there’s a valid interpretation that you’re pledging allegience to the Constitution – the Republic – and thus “indivisibility, liberty, and justice”. That is: you remain allegiant to the Constitution. But the current pledge has so much wrong with it that it’s cult-like.
- Obviously get “under God” the hell out of there. Cold War-era reactionary trash.
- There’s no reason to assume from the literal text that what I said is true. Why not just focus on the principles?
- It’s a waste of time for kids to recite a dumb pledge they barely understand; granted they can’t force you and a lot of schools IIRC don’t do that anymore.
- Even if the interpretation is true, why should this specific system of government be so glorified?
- Get it the fuck out of there. It was introduced 100 years after the formation of the US by a Civil War officer as propaganda for children – probably paranoid out of his fucking mind after the South seceded. There’s no reason kids can’t learn to think for themselves when they’re ready to actually understand these ideas.
the way i see it, is that a nation needs some unifying factor, and i much rather it be some positive ideals than the fact that people are just born nearby or have the same ethnicity. That being said, i can see how it can easily be used to drive up nationalism, so i am not fully sure that the way it is, being forced to kids, is the best way
Speaking of the pledge…
First, why pledge allegiance to a “flag”? It’s weird, right?
Second, they added the phrase “under god” later after the pledge had already been adopted. But they also say, “indivisible”. If atheists are full citizens, then it cannot be both “under god” and “indivisible”, because you’ve just divided people into atheists and theists in the words immediately preceding.
When you start to put all the pieces together, the pledge is a bunch of nonsense that isn’t even consistent with itself. How can you even make such a pledge?
It’s not meant to be logic - after all, it’s targetting kids, who are hardly likely to challenge it and actually think it through like you did - it’s meant to train kids to be Nationalistic.
Indivisible means the south best not try that shit again, while under God means no commies (ignore the fact that a socialist pastor wrote the rest of it)
Was ‘one nation indivisible’ which they divided with god.
I’m a school bus driver and I attended a meeting of my local school board a few months ago. I was totally surprised when they kicked it off with the pledge of allegiance. I hadn’t done it since middle school and I couldn’t even remember which hand you’re supposed to put over your heart.
It’s fucked up. I would proudly pledge allegiance to the fucking Constitution instead.
I wouldn’t. Yeah it’s a pretty great document all things considered, but it still has it’s flaws. Also it took over 200 years to get it to sort of good. Remember the U.S. Constitution still allows slavery as a punishment for a crime, I’d never pledge allegiance to that.
Hey at least they weren’t successful in implementing the one-raised-arm solute that the initial folks pushing for the pledge in schools wanted to see. That would’ve aged reeeeally well…
Oh, they did. But they ditched it after Hitler adopted it. Bad optics for our fashy loyalty oath, ya know.
Well now that the Nazi’s are in charge and they’ve gutted the Dept of Education, I wouldn’t doubt if they started doing it again. They’ll just add the words “My heart goes out to you” at the end.
even god is divisible
by zero?
deleted by creator
Even in 1st grade in 1989 we used to say “and justice for oil”
I was in high school in the '80s. One day in history class we had a military recruiter come speak to us. After he was done the speaker said “any questions?” My buddy Rob raised his hand and said “yeah, I have a question: does napalm still stick to kids?” I’m still proud of Rob for that one.
Rob is a fucking legend. And the answer is yes.
Source: am vietnamese
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, what was the response?
The teacher immediately said “OK no more questions” and that was that. Sorry, I wish this story had a better punchline.
For the record yes, napalm does still stick to kids.
Well fuck Rob for being curious I guess. If I were his teacher I would have laughed my ass off and gave him an A.
At least they didn’t make you do it the original way, with the Bellamy salute:
How is that not cult behaviour? Sounds like indoctrination and grooming to me.
I was a bit edgy in high school and had to write a 1-page paper to the principal to be allowed to sit after refusing to recite the pledge lol
My 4 paragraphs where about the separation of church and state, injustice, my own freedom to sit, and how cultish it felt.
My mother just went to them and told them if they tried to make me stand and do the pledge she’d sue their asses and showed them the laws that already were passed at the time. She was pissed the teacher thought mom would side with her because mom knew the law. (Mom was an educator and worked at the school so that’s why the teacher, being a colleague, thought mom would agree with her)
But did it actually work? And did anyone else join in?
Yes to it working, no to joiners. The teacher didn’t really care as long as I was respectful
It still sickens me how in America children in school need to swear allegiance to the American flag all the time.
What the fuck is wrong with you? No wonder patriotism over there is so weird and cringeworthy.
I vaguely remember having to do it for a few years in elementary school, but not middle or high school. I thought maybe only elementary schools did it, but apparently not.
They don’t need to, it’s just encouraged. My kids and I never say the pledge because we’re atheists, but super religious people like Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t say it either.
They’ll treat you like you’re weird and give you a hard time, but like the Bible says… “Your boos mean nothing, for I have seen what makes you cheer”.
A Magazine Made Up The Pledge of Allegiance To Sell US Flags
In 1891, the magazine The Youth’s Companion invited readers to write and ask for cards bearing the following message: “This Certificate, representing a 10 cent contribution, entitles the holder to One Share in the patriotic influence of the School Flag.” When the enterprising tyke had sold 100 of these 19th-century NFTs, they’d send the proceeds to The Youth’s Companion and receive a flag in return. That’s about $300 per flag, in 2021 dollars.
And why were young readers so willing to put in unpaid hours as salespeople raising money to buy flags? Because of the campaign started by The Youth’s Companion called the “Flag Over Every Schoolhouse” movement. They advertised this movement to schools directly as well as in their publication, and to really give schools a reason to want flags, the magazine created the Pledge of Allegiance.
The magazines’ marketing department came up with the pledge, and had an on-staff minister to do the wording (though not the “under God” clause, which was added decades later). They got Congress’s support, aiming to get the whole country reciting the pledge by the 400th anniversary of Columbus’ birth. It seems like the magazine also did care about instilling national pride, but it was the subscriptions department who were behind these campaigns; the editorial department wanted no part in it. They sold hundreds of thousands of flags at what sounds like significantly above cost.
A company trying to sell us junk being behind a thing that doesn’t make any sense is the most American thing ever.
The more I learn about the history of American norms the more I’m realising it all starts with some early Corpo trying to sell shit.
Fucking Paul Revere was just trying to sell silverware.
Don’t you see, though? We’ve already got liberty and justice for all. The pledge says so!
Just like the DPRK is obviously democratic, a republic, and belongs to the people.
All bets are off when the Attorney General says anyone who thinks the Justice Department’s strength is justice is “sadly mistaken.”
