• FireRetardant@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    72
    arrow-down
    17
    ·
    2 days ago

    A lot of ordinary people also say they want to do everything they can against climate change but then fail to make their own simple sacrafices like reusable cups, walking instead of driving, keeping the heat lower in winter etc. Everyone wants to end climate change but without sacraficing any modern conveniences

    • crusa187@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      59
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      2 days ago

      Paper straws are not winning this battle, it’s a massive problem which must be solved at an institutional scale. This requires governments to participate, not individuals.

      • killingspark@feddit.org
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        2 days ago

        Gouvernements in man places dont exist separate from the individuals. Individuals voted for these governments. It’s one of the many small contributions our parents could have made but didn’t.

        • qarbone@lemmy.world
          cake
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          19
          ·
          2 days ago

          You live in one of those places where the people you vote for do things you want, huh? Must be nice.

          • Foreigner@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            2 days ago

            We can point fingers at governments and companies all day long, but unless something motivates them to change they’re not going to. Right now the only real mechanisms we have at our disposal are our votes and our wallets. If people throw up their hands and can’t even be arsed to leverage either of those things, nothing will change. Telling ourselves it’s someone else’s fault and doing nothing is the pinnacle of being part of the problem.

            • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              2 days ago

              People are using their votes and their wallets though. Not everyone, but more and more people all the time. Basic ecological awareness in the general population is higher than it ever was for our parents and grandparents, and there will always be more an individual could do.

              Blaming individuals just creates an unreachable vague goal. What level of buy in in the general population will be enough? How many people have to live up to some arbitrary goal line until we can start holding companies fucking accountable? Or even just holding rich individuals doing shit like work commute by private fucking plane accountable?

              Always just a little bit more. No, hybrids aren’t enough, you need to go full EV. EVs aren’t enough, how is the electricity being generated? No, you aren’t doing enough until you have no car and walk everywhere. Just keep chasing that moving target. Oh, you might be doing it all right, but too many of your neighbors aren’t, so now you have to drag them kicking and screaming into it too. The companies and the rich will definitely start caring with just a little more work from the middle class and the poor. Just a little more now. They definitely won’t use every dirty trick in the book to avoid losing profits.

              If someone keeps getting papercuts on their fingers, and also a bullet wound in the corresponding shoulder, you focus on the bullet wound first. Doesn’t mean that you ignore the fingers, you just have to prioritize, and not claim that slapping bandaids on the fingers will somehow close up the shoulder.

          • killingspark@feddit.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            2 days ago

            Well, no, but they could have at least voted for people that claimed that they would do something.

    • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 day ago

      I would gladly sacrifice modern conveniences as part of a societal shift towards degrowth, but it’s psychologically and socially taxing not to choose convenience when it is available. I want these conveniences taken away from me, or taxed into inconvenience.

      And perhaps most importantly, when these conveniences are taken away at scale we can replace them at scale with other good things, the way we can’t when making individual choices.

      I do not want to drive but I can’t buy a place in a walkable neighborhood when capitalism refuses to build them. I want to save on heating by living in an intentional community but society is so atomized and group housing so rare that I can’t find one to call home.

      The solution to a tragedy of the commons is not to have a few people still pay into the commons, it’s to rebuild the system around the commons that makes it the best choice for you personally to support the commons and take sustainably.

    • brrt@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      2 days ago

      But I’d do anything* to stop climate change!

      Tap for spoiler

      *I can still eat meat daily, have a house with a paved front yard, 2 SUVs in the garage, go on vacation via plane 3 times a year and buy cheap disposable stuff on Amazon, right?

      • scintilla@preferred.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 day ago

        Are you going to pay for the upfront cost of me getting a new car? What about moving somewhere where I can walk to my job? Pay for the difference between the things that I would prefer to buy because they’ll last longer or the cheap ones that I can afford and work ok for now.

      • Kindness is Punk@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        2 days ago

        I’ve given up meat, I moved closer to my work so I could commute by bicycle and when I water my plants I do it with gray water I get from my dehumidifier.

        So when my friend had a new house built an hour from his work and bought a new car because of the commute, well that person is no longer my friend and I know that seems extreme but I just can’t reconcile it.

      • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        2 days ago

        In their defense, the house was built 50 years ago. Ripping up the drive and disposing of the concrete releases more CO2, SUVs are practically the only vehicles offered on the market anymore (and you got tired of almost getting killed by dodge-ram drivers while driving your tiny hybrid hatchback), hah, you think we get vacations, and when the stuff you need only comes in a disposable form, what choice do you really have?

    • samus12345@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 days ago

      If every single household did all that stuff but corporations continued as usual, it would barely make a dent. We should still do it because something is better than nothing, but blaming the average consumer is definitely choosing the wrong target.

      • FireRetardant@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        ·
        2 days ago

        I’m not blaming the consumer, but if consumers take more responsibility it does give us more power. We have more political and legal arguments to say we’ve tried what is reasonable for us to do, now its time to hold corporations to do the same. Its also good for activism morale. Even if its just a small dent the effort proves change can happen and we can push for more change, support greener options, and inspire new innovations/solutions. This is better than an attitude of “well the world is fucked anyway so why should I care?”

    • bbsm3678@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      2 days ago

      I gladly vote for politicians who will pass climate laws and regulations, but individual actions by me will not change anything.

      • huppakee@feddit.nl
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        2 days ago

        Not all your actions are equally meaningless. If you take short showers the lower demand for water and gas/electricity won’t do much but for certain alternatives a critical mass is needed and adding your weight to that mass can matter. Take diary for example, soy milk has existed for ages but the increased demand the last 20 years result in increased supply. Same goes for alternative meats. More people biking increases the need for infrastructure, if enough people make that decision that will change road design which will in turn result in it being less attractive to drive. Same with public transport.

        Climate laws and regulations will have a much more traceable impact, but the untraceable results of your individual action also has an impact.

        If you care about having a large impact without large sacrifices there are articles online that go deeper into this.

      • FireRetardant@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        2 days ago

        If everyone thinks their changes don’t matter then i guess they don’t, if everyone thought their changes did matter then we could see meaningful progress. Just because other sources are still producing doesn’t make your efforts meaningless. There is also something to be said about secondary effects of minor changes, like inspiring others to commit to changes or inspiring new innovations or ideas to improve things.

        Edit: id also like to add that new law and policy often comes with minor efforts on the consumer. Take recycling and organics bins for example. The consumer now has to sort their trash instead of throwing it all in 1 bin and I’ve met many people who think this is some big scam or conspiracy to control people or something.

    • fafferlicious@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 days ago

      The responsibility of the individual to curb climate change and resource management is a con. Yes, it should be part of the shared burden; however, until the primary drivers of resource overconsumption and climate change (I. E. Corporations and mega-rich) are held to the fire, there’s no point.

      Like, why do people think the answers to systemic problems are through individual actions and responsibility? Like what. The most impactful change we can take as individuals is to vote, protest, and push for changes to the system.

      Who the fuck cares if someone’s got their heater set to 85 in the winter if the energy is coming from geothermal, solar, wind, and heat pumps?

      • Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        2 days ago

        It’s not a con, people can and should still make choices and sacrifices to stop climate change while recognizing that the real problem is corporate greed.

        You can recognize that litter is caused by corporations use of single use plastics for everything, while at the same time recognizing that it’s your responsibility to at least dispose of them properly instead of throwing it on the street.

        • fafferlicious@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          2 days ago

          It is a con from the perspective that it will have a meaningful impact at this time.

          Time and focus are finite resources. Yeah, people can make green sacrifices AND protest to lobby for big changes. But if they only could do one because of time, which would you say would have the largest impact?

          All the stuff you said or blocking ports to grind economies to a halt?

          • Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            2 days ago

            It would make a meaningful impact, if everyone in America just drove 10% less that would result in a reduction of 110 million metric tons of co2, close to the total emissions of Bangladesh 122 million tons ( population around half the US). The same is true about meat consumption, which is even more feasible to completely stop today for most people.

            Sure those two things aren’t going to stop climate change, systemic change is needed. But the methods for everyday people to create that systemic change are either illegal ( blocking ports, destroying oil infrastructure), and thus most people aren’t going to risk there livelihoods for, or they’re ineffectual (peaceful protest, electoral politics) so doing the above choices would make more of a difference.

            Yes attention and effort are finite resources, but the choice for most people is not block a port or become vegetarian, it’s gonna be go to a peaceful protest / vote for the dems or become a vegetarian. In that choice, becoming a vegetarian is the better use of effort.

            • fafferlicious@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              2 days ago

              You’ve definitely given me something to think about - evaluate if even 110 million would have prevented or given us another decade before we hit +1.5c.

              However, your Bangladesh stat is absolutely meaningless and misleading. It seems impressive at first glance, but it’s not. The proper context is global CO2 production. In 2014, 35,000 million (or 35 billion) tons of CO2 were produced. And that’s just fossil fuels. And that’s more than a decade ago. I don’t have the numbers, but I suspect it’s even more.

              110 million / 35,000 million = 0.3% reduction

              • Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                2 days ago

                Fair enough, the figure you’re looking for / what I based on the Bangladesh claim is here, 39 billion tonnes total so even less, 0.28% reduction. But that is for only 10% reduction in one country. Increase that to 20% and do it for all countries and your probably getting a couple percent reduction. Again not going to stop climate change or give us another decade before 1.5c, which we’ve already passed in 2025.

                Were going to need every percent we can get though and any sort of reduction helps. If we’re going to have a carbon neutral future it’s going to require these sacrifices, and the earlier we make them the better. Delaying them is only hurting the cause for some temporary comfort.

    • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      2 days ago

      The problem is that companies are only responsible for producing their product… And that is only half the lifecycle.

      Start taxing/charging companies for the complete lifecycle of their products. If the ocean is full of plastic bags, then the cost of cleanup for those bags should be baked into the price.

    • Saledovil@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      2 days ago

      A lot of people can’t avoid car travel because of car centric infrastructure. Of course, most of these people would also scream if you tried to fix car centric infrastructure.

    • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      2 days ago

      Honestly, the majority of what you listed isn’t going to make any difference in the slightest even if literally everyone did it tomorrow.

      Here’s a completely random non-comprehensive list of stuff that would actually be pretty impactful though.

      Upgrade your dryer to a heat pump dryer , they use 1/4 the amount of electricity to do the same job if literally everyone traded their electric dryer for the heat pump dryer it would dramatically reduce energy usage and thus also result in a dramatic drop in CO2 generation from various energy generation sources. You don’t have to worry about your old dryer it is made of 90% material that actually gets recycled for real just drop it off at a scrap yard.

      Use your compost bin actually start separating stuff for it properly . Most people don’t make use of it, if you are particular waste Company does not offer composting then simply make a compost box somewhere on your property if you can and start composting there’s a lot of things that just end up in the trash that could be compostable which would be better for it the environment and reduce the burden on the waste system.

      Curb the demand for forever chemicals. Replace everything in your kitchen with stainless steel or wood or glass. No plastic or Teflon just learn to preheat your pans properly and use a little bit of oil the sticking of your eggs is nothing more than a skill issue I use stainless steel and I can make fried eggs that slide around like they’re on ice. And not just the pots and pans replace all of your utensils plates bowls. It creates a small surge in waste initially as you get rid of the old stuff but as long as it’s going forward you never purchase the plastics again it means demand will go down.

      Those are just a couple completely random things that would be fairly simple and easy to do that would actually make a pretty drastic difference if even just 40% of the population would follow through but I speak from experience when I say if you attempt to get people on board with any of these they just can’t be bothered because it’s a slight minor inconvenience compared to what they already do

      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        2 days ago

        Upgrade your dryer to a heat pump dryer , they use 1/4 the amount of electricity to do the same job if literally everyone traded their electric dryer for the heat pump dryer it would dramatically reduce energy usage and thus also result in a dramatic drop in CO2 generation from various energy generation sources.

        Dryers are such an American thing. Heat pump dryer sounds extra expensive. My European ass just hangs clothes to dry. Guess what, they’re dry by the next day. I compensate by having multiple days worth of clothes. Heat pump dryers are like 700 EUR, a good quality clothes rack is 15 EUR.

        Use your compost bin actually start separating stuff for it properly . Most people don’t make use of it, if you are particular waste Company does not offer composting then simply make a compost box somewhere on your property if you can and start composting there’s a lot of things that just end up in the trash that could be compostable which would be better for it the environment and reduce the burden on the waste system.

        So as of 2024, in my country, it’s actually mandatory to either have a compost bin, or alternatively a compost enclosure in your garden if you have a garden. You get fined if you have neither (so apartments will always have the bin). Reason was, a lot of people threw meats and stuff in their compost piles and that attracted animals. So now it has to be enclosed to keep them away.

        But does composting actually affect that much, as far as CO2 is concerned? I just do it because compost is great for fertilizing crops and soil deteriorates if you keep growing mostly the same shit every damn year (even when rotating where exactly which thing is). The soil apocalypse is another one we’re going to have to face soon.

        Curb the demand for forever chemicals. Replace everything in your kitchen with stainless steel or wood or glass. No plastic or Teflon

        IKEA over here gives a 15 year warranty for certain models of their stainless steel pots and pans, but not the ones that have teflon coating. Get yourself a 2.8 liter pot with a 15 year warranty for 5 fucking euros (discount price not regular I think). Lid included in the price. 15 EUR 28 CM stainless steel pan, 15 year warranty. Carbon steel pan of same size, 30 EUR. Also 15 year warranty. I already bought one pot and one stainless pan. No idea if I’ll ever need a warranty on these goods (except maybe the pot for the plastic handles if they get loose and can’t be tightened anymore), but the prices themselves are already better than teflon shit in a regular grocery store and those often don’t last too long. Next up I’m buying a carbon steel pan so I can compare that to the stainless steel one. Previously all I’ve owned has all been teflon or ceramic. I’ve personally contributed to the teflon industry by about 3 pans over 10 years.

        • LordKitsuna@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          2 days ago

          I live in an area where it is raining more often than not so unfortunately clothes lines are not really an option for me, though i compensated by going entirely off grid. I have enough solar and battery storage that I am completely self-sufficient. I have a heat pump dryer, heat pump hot water heater, and I still use things like a dishwasher as they do use dramatically less water than doing it by hand

          I guess that’s one I also forgot to put on the list heat pump hot water heater yes they are more expensive than the standard electric but they will pay for themselves pretty quickly unless you just almost never use hot water. Same for the dryer, it is indeed more expensive than a standard electric one but it will pay for itself pretty quickly with the 1/4th power used

          • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            2 days ago

            Oh I didn’t even mean the outdoors clothes lines (which I also have, but am too lazy to use), I meant an indoor rack like this:

            I have 2 of those so I can do like 3 loads of laundry and just set it and forget it.

            Won’t work with high humidity, but chances are if you have high humidity indoors, you’d want a heat pump to use as AC in the summer and for extra heating in the winter, anyway (game changer IMO)

            Heat pump hot water heater - don’t think that’s even a thing here. Reason being, if you’re getting a heat pump to heat your water, you might as well just go full blast and install an air-to-water or even geothermal pump that heats up both your radiators (or floors) AND the boiler. It’s a goal of mine for next summer. But in the absence of such an option, I will admit that a straight heat pump water heater is probably good too. Right now I have an electric heater for summertime usage and I’m not the biggest fan.