I see your point, however, the Democratic party is not fascist. It does provide a clear difference from the GOP. Wether we like it or not, USA is a two party system. We need to be practical here, not ideological, or we just go fascist forever.
The Democrats used to be the racist pro slavery party. Then it got captured and turned into Roosevelts New Deal Democrats, which were obviously to the left of the Republicans. Not perfect, but they really did a lot of good.
This can be repeated, but it takes a lot of work.
…you didn’t say fascist…
Maybe you’re not ready to hear this: Both sides are not the same.
We need to get involved at the primary level, not lament the choices we are left with when primary election turnout is hilariously low. I’d be surprised if the average voter even knows what a primary election is.
ITT is some progressives who put more time, energy and anger into bullying other progressives not to vote for a genuinely progressive candidate, than they do into trying to sincerely convince Republican voters not to vote Republican.
There’s a logical fallacy at play in their minds where they think “Republican voters aren’t reasonable but progressives are, so I’ll spend my time trying to whip progressives into holding the Party line. Maybe cussing them out and accusing them of being complicit in the rise of fascism will help…”
The Republican party was a party of radical abolitionists and it was captured by the capitalists. The Democratic party can likewise be changed to something it is not currently.
You can’t convince me of what may be by talking about what is.
Not saying capitalism is the best form, but which economic form is better given human greed and tendency for corruption?
Better not try then…
I gladly note, that maker of this propaganda meme is fuckin stupid xD
Forward party checking in.
Roosevelt did great things for Americans while still being capitalist. The needle can be moved left without violent revolution.
“Both sides bad” is weak sauce.
Quick reminder that there were other things going on in the 20s and 30s. You know, the height of socialism in the West, a strong labor movement willing to burn down factories, stuff like that. The New Deal didn’t come because leftists played nice.
A socialist movement independent from either of the major parties too!
I feel like Western labour just doesn’t have any leverage anymore. The rich simply do not need us. They have outsourced enough labour that they really don’t care if we strike en masse. Like, shut down which factories? They’re all overseas.
That’s what they want you to think. Their own lives depend on Western labor. That’s who runs the ports, the railways, the warehouses, etc. Also a lot of high-tech stuff is still in the West.
The coal wars threatening to kick off a second civil war, y’know small things.
Blue Morpho apparently never learned about the Battle of Blair Mountain or the Railway Strikes.
So there ARE conditions by which reform can occur, neat.
Yes, but you have to be willing to crack bourgeoisie skulls.
No, the new deal only came to be after violent protests, and was largely a betrayal of labor groups because it gave a much watered down version of what was actually demanded, all while Roosevelt broke the strike he promised to support while campaigning. Read “Labor’s Giant Step Forward” by Art Preis if you want a more detailed accpunt
In addition to the points raised by some of the other comments I’d remind you of one uncomfortable truth. The business plot was attempted fascist takeover of America. That was thankfully put down because remarkably there was one honorable ex-marine they tried to involve the plot. That’s Smedley Butler. In the wake of that that attempted fascist coup basically nobody was punished. In large part because Roosevelt told them as long as they kept their mouth shut and didn’t block the New Deal he wouldn’t go after them. That’s basically the only reason it got through. Truncated as it was even then. Because most of the richest and most powerful people in the country we’re looking down the barrel of a gun otherwise.
Prescott Bush and his cronies should have been hanged.
And Smedley Butler Day should be a national holiday.
Have fun wasting your time doing this. If they only fucked over Burnie once I might agree with you.
Well, they will still try. They won’t give it up. But it’s not possible to win it against them, like the Tea Party won against less extreme establishment Republicans
If you had to go back almost a hundred years to find any kind of example, I’m just going to gesture broadly at the next hundred years and rest my case.
Roosevelt was the least bad president and was ruling during a time where the US ended up on the right side of a conflict. He still did not abolish capitalism or the American empire, nor did he have any intentions to.
But that doesn’t make the democrats good, it doesn’t make one side better, it doesn’t make the US good.
it doesn’t make one side better
One side IS objectively better.
That’s proven by economic stats.
That’s proven by voting history.
That’s proven by criminal conviction history.
There is no debate which side is better if you’re even remotely interested in facts.
You take the side that is better and you reform it by primarying the reps that won’t play ball for their constituents., sending a clear message to the reps that remain. That is how democracy works in its most effective form.
can it be done again without another series of protests and pain the current era of capitalism?
Both sides are varying degrees of the same ideology, give all the money to the economic elite so they bribe both parties into maintaining that policy above all other considerations.
One side shrugs and calls it free market forces(D) as you suffer under that policy goal, the other points and laughs at you and says you deserve it®. That is the extent of our “freedom” under American democracy.
One side appoints Justices that voted against Citizens United and one appoints Justices that voted for it. That’s a huge distinction.
With unintelligent comments like yours and all the discussions happening below meme threads, conflicts and violence is where we are heading to. I encourage you to learn more about the things you are talking about.
Both sides are functionally the same when it comes to the world. There’s barely a difference between domestic policy between the two American parties. One uses sweet nothing’s to try assuage your fears and the other uses Force and strongman techniques.
Yeah the FDR Reformation came directly from FDR and we pushed through at his behest. According to my understanding of these politics at a time if The president hadn’t been FDR we would not have gotten those Reformations. Besides they hardly matter nowadays when they’re practically entirely Stripped Away. The last surviving one is social security and they’re pretty gung-ho about getting rid of that too.
Both sides
Instant downvote. Lazy trash.
Couldn’t be bothered to read. Ad hominem attack. Excellent representation of the American voter.
People who type the words “both sides” and then post don’t deserve to have their comments read.
People who are unable to read are one of the reason the United States is in the toilet.
People who use fallacies so they don’t have to engage with the objective facts of an argument they’re not able to impeach are another reason the world is falling to facism
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Yep.
All the keyboard warriors talking about revolution need to either pick up and gun and do it or get off their asses and help primary bad Dems to send a message and start the reformation process.
No one who made it out of high school should be saying “both sides” because it’s a profoundly stupid and unproductive thing to say. Did we have masked squads disappearing people before January? Did our allies all hate us? Were we threatening fucking Canada? Were we paying tariff taxes?
What is the point of this meme? I feel like the only thing this can produce is people to not try to reform and improve the democratic party and take it over (like the tea party took over the republicans). Kind of like these “give up climate change it can’t be stopped” posts that just benefits the big fossil fuels companies
That’s the point, I’ve noticed a lot of the loudest, most active posters on Lemmy ultimately want one thing, which is progressives not to vote. Weird how that’s what the conservatives have relied on for every presidential victory they’ve achieved in the past half century or more.
Votes are earned not freely given. Your vote is your voice. Definitely vote at the local and state levels where your voice can be the loudest.
don’t worry bout dat
And if you only want to give half a vote, give it to Trump and JD.
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
Not voting wasn’t a vote for Trump. Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
It was.
Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
It would mean you wouldn’t have minded a Harris victory. The comment even explicitly said “half a vote” to reflect this.
This commentary is frequently also accompanied with blaming Harris voters for things that Trump is doing…
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First off, it’s four years, get your math right. Secondly, we only bomb browns, we just sell the bombs to anyone wanting to bomb whites. “Foreigner” and “non-foreigner” really have nothing to do with it. I think mainly we just feel really secluded over here and we don’t want to be left out of all the cool Europe and Asia and Africa happenings, this is just the only way we can express ourselves.
What is the point of this meme?
These memes communicate to Democrats and their supporters that we’re sick and tired of their mask-off conservative rule when they promise us the world and do nothing once elected. You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Since, you know, not voting for them apparently isn’t enough to inspire meaningful change. Just once in my life I want to see Democrats fight harder for the working class and poor as they do against socialists and third parties.
You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Time for you to educate yourself. Look up Dem’s economic stats compared to Republicans. Look up the Dem’s voting history.
They aren’t doing EVERYTHING, but they do a lot more than the other viable option.
If you want them to do more, then stop wasting your time doing what you’re doing and start focusing on getting people to primary Dems who aren’t doing what we want, because that’s how you get Democrat party reform.
This meme is utter trash and only serves to fracture liberals and prevent the reform I just described.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems to send a message instead of fucking whining and not voting or voting 3rd party so fascists can take over.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems
That bad candidate was Joe Biden.
The Democratic Party just ignored it. Democratic primaries are a worthless exercise.
Joe Biden was not primaried.
Yes he was.
Read the link I embedded there. Also, there was Marianne Williamson.
Not that it would have mattered, as Democrats rig their primaries anyway.
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That’s exactly it. This is the meme and attitude of tankies that are chomping at the bit for violence and doing everything they can to help push the country to the Right. This is because of their faith-based belief that it will magically create class consciousness and a revolution to overthrow the global bourgeoisie. They don’t give two shits about the LGBTQ+, POC, medically vulnerable, etc people that they have to sacrifice in the process.
Tankies. Do not engage.
Smart. Having one’s echo chamber and worldview contested can be terribly inconvenient.
You are correct. The OP has an agenda and that agenda is to fracture liberals.
The answer is not to give up. The answer is not to vote for a worthless 3rd party with zero chance of winning. The answer is to reform the Democrat party and history has shown us, repeatedly, that it is completely possible. And it literally just happened with the Republican party in the last 2 decades.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable. Instead start something new.
In general, you should not reform. Revolution is the way forward.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable.
Pick up a fucking history book.
Political party reform is entirely possible and has happened repeatedly in American history. Conservative voters just did it to the Republican party.
Scrapping an established party with national sway for a 3rd party with NO clout and NO representatives in the House or Senate is fucking stupid. Especially when we have a national party in power currently attempting to dismantle our federal government to replace with an authoritarian one.
Revolution is the way forward.
Then do it. Big talk on the internet. If you think modern Americans are going to start a revolution, think again.
Easy to say from your parents basement.
Instead of projection, try self-reflection.
We need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party, just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a anti-worker. I spent way too long in the army to have the illusion that the american people are capable of changing anything through other means. It will not happen.
Not to be ignorant but I highly doubt you have the training, funding, or even the intestinal fortitude to do any of the things a revolution would entail. I also think that if you did find the courage it wouldn’t matter because when they drop a non-explosive shredder warhead through your window it’s all over. You have no idea what your asking people to do when there is a better way.
This reform is simply not possible. You cannot use the same methods as the far right and expect the same result but for a different ideology. They work differently, they’re based on different systems and beliefs.
And you seriously underestimate the power of revolutionary warfare. Technological advances in military warfare have made things harder, but not impossible. In 93 Russians were in the streets fighting the Russian military to overthrow Yeltsin. They had the courage, even without the military training. On Vietnam a nation and it’s people successfully defended their freedom against a technologically superior army. And I don’t think I need to list how many coups and revolutions have appeared over the past 100 years. You can’t think it’s impossible looking at history.
I am no billionaire able to fund a milita, nor am I a general. But when the time arises or rather if it arises while I live, I do have the zeal to kill and die for what I believe in.
No, as I said I was in the military for almost a decade. I promise you I’m way more versed in the art of turning people into fertilizer than you ever will be. 1993 was 30 some years ago. The techg for killing people has improved drastically. You have no idea how many ways the US has to kill you. I saw things in 2005 that would still blow your mind.
Technological advances do not change societal upheaval.
Revolutions don’t fight the military in symmetrical warfare.
Militaries can defect, they can be sabotaged, their bases besieged, their supply lines disrupted, their forces stretched too thin, etc.
In ideal circumstances no revolution would have to fight one united military. Parts would defect or declare neutrality. Those who fight have finite supply and finances. What will a soldier do when he runs out of bullets and more importantly rations?
But in the absolute worst case, it will either lead to a more bloody victory or the military would have to literally depopulate the country with lethal force to establish their rule.
Also the 90s are not so far from your 2005. The majority of the military equipment Russia uses today in Ukraine is the same as during the Black October in 93.
What steps have you taken to start the New American Revolution, champ?
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China produces ~65% of global smartphones. At worst US companies simply re-brand products from overseas OEMs, at best they’re using Chinese produced semiconductors and components to create original products.
The rest of the consumer electronics market is pretty similar. If you believe modern China is communist then they are “doom-scrolling on their communist-produced smartphones” through a communist produced network infrastructure which you are, most likely, reading through a communist-produced screen.
I would argue however that modern China largely split the difference between the USSR, which you are McCarthy-ing about, and the modern Russian Federation, which explicitly reformed into a liberal democracy with a capitalist market economy.
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Let me simplify: iPhones are built and designed by, what you consider, Communists.
Android is capitalism appropriating the largely anarchist project of Linux. Which if capitalists had their way would’ve been strangled in its cradle.
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Aaaaand, you have no arguments to the contrary…
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This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it.
Go to the Democratic primaries and move the party left. And then, no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election. This is exactly what the nazis did to move the GOP to the right and it worked great for them, and it’s something we can emulate.
While I mostly agree with this, I have one significant hurdle I am unable to overcome. What other choice do I have?
I can’t stand most Democrats. They suck! But they are a far cry better than voting Republican. And voting for a third party feels like wasting my vote.
If there was a third party candidate that focused on climate change and social issues and had even the slightest chance of winning, I would vote for them in a second. Until then, I am stuck voting for the lesser of two evils.
But they are a far cry better than voting Republican. And voting for a third party feels like wasting my vote.
You just answered your own question.
Democrats are FAR, FAR, FAR better than Republicans. We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy. We know this because their voting record shows that they regularly vote in favor of the middle and lower classes. We know this because they never attempted to violently overturn an election or send masked squads into our towns to abduct people off the street.
No 3rd party is viable or will be viable anytime in the near future. It will take YEARS and YEARS for a 3rd party to start winning local/state elections and getting reps in the House and Senate. And that’s IF a 3rd party actually starts putting in the work, which none are doing.
So if you want to be smart, and actually help protect our democracy, then you should vote Democrat in national elections and maybe vote 3rd party in local elections to help them gain some traction and see if they can do anything with it.
We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy
We know this because the data shows they are
better for our economyrich people’s money.FTFY.
They’re definitely not good for “our” money, meaning the 99% that works for a living, unless you’re of the opinion that outright ignoring food and rent becoming cost-prohibitive is somehow good for “our” money.
We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy rich people’s money.
Time for you to go back to high school econ. The healthier our economy, the more everyone benefits.
Totally, man.
Trickle-down economics has worked wonders.
You are giving consent when you vote. You are saying this choice is fine.
Maybe America is at a point where voting is not the solution. How are things now compared to when the American revolution happened?
Edit - people downvote this but ‘voting for the lesser of two evils’ is. What. Has. Got. You. Here.
You are giving consent when you vote. You are saying this choice is fine.
Actually, when you vote, you just vote.
That’s it. It’s not a magic ritual, you don’t telepathically send your message to the Holy Ghost of Democracy when you vote, Anubis isn’t going to weigh your ballot against a feather before deciding on the fate of your soul.
You circle something or you don’t and then you deal with whatever happens however you want.
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If you vote for someone in an electoral democracy you’re showing support for them, directly. Your vote is a translation of your democratic political power (in theory). It is the same as stating “I want this person in power/control”. For that reason, yes voting for someone is literally endorsing them.
Yeah, “(in theory)” - that doesn’t have to be inside brackets, all you speak of is a theoretical, ideal democracy. But what we have is, for many good and bad reasons, not even close to that (as can be seem from the actual process of any elections), and it is delusional and useless to act like it is.
So youre simultaneously saying you dont live in a democracy, and also that your vote matters? Those 2 ideas are entirely incompatible with each other.
So youre simultaneously saying you dont live in a democracy, and also that your vote matters?
I’m pretty sure I didnt say either of those things; I don’t wish to argue about the semantics regarding the first statement, and the second statement is definitely correct for large parts of the population in some nominally democratic western countries (specifically US and UK whose electoral systems are a fucking disgrace).
Also yes i am speaking about the notion of democracy itself, that’s why I put the words in theory there lol
Alright, but it’s clear that I dismissed this idealist/theoretical mode of dealing with politics in my first comment, and I don’t really see any arguments for reestablishing it.
Also yes i am speaking about the notion of democracy itself, that’s why I put the words in theory there lol
No.
Implicit in the act of voting is the giving of consent. The fact that you have not received the education to understand this simple fact is indicative of how democracy has failed. It requires an educated populace.
Would you mind pointing me to somewhere where I could be educated on this matter?
They’re all happy to gaslight themselves into thinking that they’re the virtuous side, just like MAGA.
Meanwhile tens of millions of Americans are working three jobs at 100 hours a week just to be able to rent a roach-infested studio, which in the minds of Democrats, is apparently a-okay because they did nothing meaningful about it.
Also, everything you’re seeing now, from normalized police brutality, to ICE raids, to black torture sites, to government-sponsored abductions (“extraordinary renditions”), to unilateral presidential warmaking… was all also done and supported by Democrats. Obama even killed an American with a drone strike. And, for more fun, go look up which president it was that appointed Tom Homan.
The only difference is one side gives nicer speeches.
Then cry and abstain from voting or vote 3rd party and see what it gets us.
Oh wait, it’s already fucking happening.
When I was younger the Dems fought a protracted battle to get me affordable healthcare, with the Republicans trying to block it at every turn. The result is I got affordable healthcare when I had NONE before.
You should do yourself a favor and educate yourself. Look up how our economy fairs under Dems compared to Repubs. Look up both party’s voting history and find out which one actually regularly votes in favor of the middle and lower classes. Look up their criminal conviction histories.
If you educated yourself you’d find out that one party is INFINITELY better for us than the other and if we actually got off our fucking asses and primaried the Dems that weren’t onboard with what we want, they’d become even better for us.
Instead you’re crying on the internet and trying to get people to give up.
You are part of the problem.
Dems fought a protracted battle to get me affordable healthcare
No. They pretended to, and then when the cost of health care rose to where it was unaffordable they shrugged their shoulders and left you and others to die in ER’s. The ‘access’ Dems like to talk about disappears if you can’t pony up for some health care CEO’s superyacht.
You should do yourself a favor and educate yourself.
You should stop making excuses. The last six months under Donald Trump have proven that every time you pretended Democrats were powerless, you were wrong.
You are part of the problem.
No, you’re the problem, because Democrats cannot fail badly enough to get you to change.
How are things now compared to when the American revolution happened?
hahahahaha!!!1!
Yes, that’s totally a meaningful comparison. Like, let me put on my trilby*, check on my slaves while I ride a horse to town, and discuss the broadsheet nailed to the side of the tavern with the other white land-owning men.
*tricorn
Tricorn. Trilbys wouldn’t be invented for at least another century.
You’re correct. Edited.
You are giving consent when you vote. You are saying this choice is fine.
No, you are saying “Of the realistic choices I have I’m choosing what is BEST”.
Maybe America is at a point where voting is not the solution.
Then do something about it. Talking about it on the internet is easy. You think modern Americans are going to revolt? Lol. Have fun with that.
people downvote this but ‘voting for the lesser of two evils’ is. What. Has. Got. You. Here.
No, what got us where we are right now is people crying about not wanting to vote for the lesser of two evils and allowing the real evil to waltz the fuck into power.
you have no choice except this or violent revolt because your election system is garbage.
Have you paid attention to how european countries with various election systems (some non-garbage) are voting?
yes. the numbers are roughly the same, in the 20-35% range of the population.
but because our systems are generally more robust, it’s easier to fight back, while the US has become completely captured because their system is antiquated and easily gamed.
don’t threaten me with a good time. (fully aware that a revolt is not a good time)
haha yeah, i mean, whatever ppl want, i just want them to be realistic about this, rather than pretending suddenly a plurality of the American voting populace in enough states are going to start voting DSA. XD
Lol.
Americans are too pussy to violently revolt. If it was going to happen it would have already happened.
So the next, actually realistic option, is to change the Democrat party by primarying the shit out of the reps that won’t get onboard with what liberals want.
How do I know this is possible? Because conservative voters just did it to the Republican party over the last decade or two.
i agree that i don’t think Americans have what it takes for an actual revolt.
i also agree that the actual Left should stop clutching their pearls and take over the Democratic party.
