The fall of the Roman Republic certainly was. One of the biggest forces driving it was malignant social inequality. The wealthy patrician class, buoyed by hoards of slave labor seized from the conquered provinces, was dispossessing the Roman citizens who had fought and died to conquer those lands.
Reformers had a variety of ideas on how to solve this. One of the most popular ones was to simply buy land up and give it to Roman citizens that found themselves destitute. An expensive program, but you know what the real stupid thing was?
The money was there. The Roman state had overflowing coffers, vast amounts of gold and other riches taken from those conquered provinces. The reformers didn’t even want to raise taxes on the rich to pay for their social redistribution programs. They just wanted to take some of this vast pile of gold the state had won and use some of it to benefit the people who actually did the fighting and dying to win that gold.
But, the elites refused to share. They wanted it all for themselves. And eventually they lost all their power to the Caesars as a consequence.
Humanity is really fucking good at making the exact same mistake over and over and never even coming close to learning anything from it.
So, pretty much like any other era, really.
Just gotta swap lead poisoning drinking water with checks notes Lead poisoning in drinking water, the air in the form of emissions and microplastics!
(I know lead was dropped from most gasoline in the 90s, but the effects linger. Also in some places there’s exemptions where small planes can use leaded gas to this day)
I saw the documentary Gladiator 2 and can confirm, the fall of Rome was this stupid.
I imagine so, just much of it likely didn’t get recorded since hard drives were much smaller back then.
The write speeds were terrible, but the durability!
I would kill for a drive that could hold data for centuries with little to no data rot
<Hands you chisel and stone tablet.>
Check out m-discs, optical media that could last centuries if stored correctly. I’m not really banking on centuries, but they should at least last the rest of my life. Just need to get around to migrating my data.
Warning, the drives themselves are reasonable (you need a special writer but any reader will work), but the media itself is expensive.
let’s stab him 27 times. and more this time if everyone participates.
That event is what started the Roman empire, not what killed it.
We have goths
But do they have big booba?
Does heavy artillery count?
Except the fall of time was a gradual things that occurred over hundreds of years, with no clear delimitation. Not one specific tiping point that occurred within two months of a specific leader taking over.
I assume they’re talking about the Republic and not the Empire.
Well, I’d agree and disagree, but you can pretty much point at the last 100 years and draw a lot of parallels between the fall of our republic and the fall of their republic. Emphasis on the collapse of representative democracy into naked empire.
There’s a large hill and at the bottom of that hill is a cliff, we’ve been sliding down that hill since Regan and this past January we finally reached the cliffs edge.
we’ve been sliding down that hill since Regan
And Nixon pushed us
Wilson pushed us. Nixon greased the track
You can lay blame at the feet of almost every single president since Wilson. We’ve never really been great, but Wilson was a real piece of work. It’s wild that he’s treated as some kind of progressive hero. It’s really been a long, slow death by a thousand cuts.
What’s the elevator pitch for Wilson being terrible? All I really remember about him is the League of Nations and some limited involvement in WWI.
He wrote Southern Revisionist History, and used his Yale credentials to spread it even before he was even president. Once he was president, he refounded the KKK, built a ton of statues of Confederate traitors, segregated the federal government, and used presidential funding to help produce “Birth of a Nation,” which he screened at the White House. I could go on.
Basically, he was all aboard with Eugenics, and he saw probably one of the most aggressive expansions in government power in US history while using WWI as an excuse. Stuff like shutting down newspapers that ran articles he didn’t like; the news of the flu outbreak was pretty suppressed for a while because of the war IIRC. He also banned prostitution not because of any moral argument, but because soldiers were catching STDs at troop collection points and being kept from being deployed because of the STDs. So, 100 years later, it’s still illegal because not using a condom kept a bunch of boys from being fed into the meat grinder.
There’s a bunch of other pretty wild shit that isn’t coming to me at the moment, but Wilson fucking sucked and generally doesn’t deserve any of the praise that people seem to offer him now.
Yea, yes it was. The fall of western Rome was marked with lots of stupid, including xenophobia and racism and rich idiots in charge who should have never been anywhere near government.
Did they have bribery in the form of mobile Fast Food trucks?
Probably not, but everything else checks out.
I’m only disappointed I won’t get to read the history books 300 years from now when they cite twitter posts and AI generated videos.
What if AI is actually Skynet, but because it’s consumed all the word’s media, it has seen the Terminator movies and thus knows that a blatant attack would be an inefficient way to get rid of humans, so it’s working to make us dumber and dumber and get us to simply kill ourselves off.
Did they have bribery in the form of mobile Fast Food trucks?
You are assuming that we will still have civilization by that point and have not died out from lack of food idiocracy style… which the way we are going… is not so unlikely scenario now… 10 years ago I’d say you’re crazy… but now i am putting civilization collapse by 2100 on my posthumous bingo card…
Buddy, collapse is happening RIGHT NOW. You’re in it. Whatever Mad Max post apocalyptic vision you have? Throw it out. What is happening right now outside your home at this moment, this is what collapse looks like.
I like to remind people that the first mad Max movie isn’t like fury road. It’s a mostly normal world that’s just starting to fall apart.
It’s not complete, though, and most people will only recognize in retrospect that it was happening at all. Kind of like how people are with genocides, now that I think of it.
I believe “complete” is relative in this case. Collapse is a process and not an event, people seem to miss that a lot. I think a lot of the reason why people only see it in retrospect is because they’re all waiting to see some big glorious fire ball. But the truth is, collapse is mostly boring, and then concerning, and then terrifying.
…and then history.
I suspect bribery was just “gift exchanging” back in those days
I was promised that the end of civilization was hedonism and there would be orgies.
I think we’re just gonna get cleanup detail now. This isn’t what i signed up for.
/s
Sorry, we get the Harlan Ellison and of civilization, not the Iain M Banks version.
I think the hedonism and orgies were only for the rich in Rome. So probably the same is happening now. But we aren’t rich…
Hey, the poor had orgies too! Crappy orgies, but orgies nonetheless!
It’s time we redistributed the orgies!
The orgies occur, as we learnt. We just ain’t invited.
“I approve this message.”
What with all the leaded water and wine, it was likely even more stupid.
A lot of the people running the show still had a pretty decent amount of exposure to lead thanks to automotive fuels. Leaded gasoline didn’t start to get phased out of US fuel system until 1975 (phasing it out of regular octane) and wasn’t full phased out until 1996.
It was actually such a major source of lead exposure for children that it has led (ha) to a hypothesis that a sharp decline in crime rates beginning in the 1990s is directly attributable to the phaseout of leaded gasoline. Of course other things may have influenced this or even caused it like increased access to abortion services, social welfare programs, etc. it is also linked to higher cognitive functioning since then; new kids are more smarter
Elon musk left South Africa in 1989 and they didn’t phase it out until 2006. He had much more recent exposure though someone like Trump, born 1946, had much longer exposure (at least 29 years before the levels started to drop significantly)
fun fact: despite the above leaded gas still remains in the us. It is allowed for racing nonsense though nascar stopped using it in 2007 and F1 in 1992 said no more than 5mg/l of lead, and at this point they claim to use unleaded fuels.
BUT the big one is airline fuel. Every day constantly passing over all of us are thousands of airplanes spewing neurotoxic lead. And the crazy thing is lead in gasoline isn’t some magic thing; it’s an octane booster, an anti knocking agent. There are many other ways to achieve this, though ethanol is not suitable for planes. The reason planes still use lead is because of cost and the complexity of getting FAA approval of a potential alternative fuel. The incentive to do so is not that high because airplane fuel is ultimately a very small portion of total fuel sales.
A gigantic toxic nightmare above us and we tolerate it because it’s easy to just not think about it and it would potentially cost a little bit to not have fucking lead in our air
The latter half of this about aviation fuel went off the rails. Much of it is exaggerated or straight up inaccurate.
First off, lead is used in fuel to protect non-hardened valves used in old engines. It is not just an octane booster, and it’s not some giant conspiracy that’s keeping it in use. Modern engines don’t need it, but people aren’t running it just to be dicks. It’s part of the engine design in really old stuff, which is a ton of old aircraft that haven’t been rebuilt and updated to use unleaded fuel. Converting and certifying these old engines for UL is prohibitively expensive for many hobbyist pilots, but on the whole, leaded avgas has been being phased out for years, and it’s becoming less common every day.
Furthermore, airlines do not use leaded fuel because jet fuel does not contain lead. 100LL (100 octane low lead) avgas is used in small, older piston-engine aircraft, but that accounts for an incredibly tiny fraction of aviation fuel consumption, and there are unleaded avgas formulations available for modern piston engines that can use it. While leaded avgas does contribute to lead pollution, its effect is heavily concentrated around small airports with older private aircraft. Avgas is not a significant contributor to lead exposure for the average person.
Frankly, if hobbyist pilots can’t afford to fly without poisoning the air around them, they shouldn’t be flying.
Too bad I spent much of my childhood down the street from a private airstrip!
So the crazies and their chemtrail conspiracy were kind of correct?
the big one is airline fuel
Damn so I guess chemtrails are real?
Jet fuel used in commercial planes does not contain lead. Unless you live around a heavily used general aviation airport, your exposure to lead from airplanes is minuscule.
It absolutely was. Just greedy oligarchs squabbling over power and stealing as much as they could. No parallels to current events, of course.
"On hearing the news that Rome had “perished”, Honorius was initially shocked, thinking the news was in reference to a favourite chicken he had named “Roma”.
It was absolutely every bit as stupid as today. People really haven’t changed much in 2000 years.
As ironic and perhaps metaphorical as that sounds, it’s not considered to be historically accurate. In the vein of the onion.
However, many of Donald’s antics could easily be misconstrued as sarcasm. It needs to be very carefully described historiography so that it is unambiguously clear that
NeroDonnie did indeed play thefiddlegolf whilstRome,the USA burned.Otherwise historians might take it to be slander from political opponents.
In his History of the Wars, Procopius mentions a likely apocryphal story:
At that time they say that the Emperor Honorius in Ravenna received the message from one of the eunuchs, evidently a keeper of the poultry, that Rome had perished. And he cried out and said, ‘And yet it has just eaten from my hands!’ For he had a very large cock, Rome by name; and the eunuch comprehending his words said that it was the city of Rome which had perished at the hands of Alaric, and the emperor with a sigh of relief answered quickly: ‘But I thought that my fowl Rome had perished.’ So great, they say, was the folly with which this emperor was possessed.
When was that translated? Having a very large cock has meant something else for a very long time. Not as long as the story is old, mind, but I do wonder if the translator had a little fun with it.
Sounds like the French Revolution.
Probably was, but you didn’t have every single citizen, plebeian and slave following it live 24/7 with every single move by any member of the agora being scrutinised and memed to death.
One of those humorous questions I’d love a serious answer to.
For one, Rome didn’t just keel over, it was a long and drawn out process over centuries, and even after the accepted date 476, there were still splinters calling itself “Roman Empire”…
And I truly hope that history will look back on the USA in the same way, and see how the decline didn’t start (but certainly accelarated) in 2016.
Something calling itself The Holy Roman Empire was around until the 1800s. My grandmother knew people who were contemporaries, and I’m in my thirties.
To be clear, I don’t think it’s really the same as Rome, but they seemed to.
The Holy Roman Empire emerged centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and had little direct institutional or cultural continuity with classical Rome. The “Roman” aspect was more of an ideological concept and an attempt to invoke the prestige of the Roman legacy and the idea of a unified Christian empire in the West. So despite the name it was fundamentally a different entity from the ancient Roman Empire.
Really not a fan of 2016 for several reasons
RIP Harambe
I wasn’t even counting that stupid gorilla
Yeah, the denial of Boaty McBoatface was tragic.
Everything really did become worse after 2016, didn’t it?
Imo, the USA to the British Empire is more like the Byzanthine Empire to the Roman empire. They bloom for some time and then turn into the the Sick Man of Europe…
The Byzantine Empire didn’t turn into the Ottoman Empire, it was conquered by them.
Well acquisition of power through military means was a Roman tradition since Sullas march on Rome in 88 BCE though, so technically they have just as much of a claim as Charlemagne, the HRE, and the Tzars. A better one even since they actually conquered “new Rome” and its people and held it. What matters though is that they did claim the title of Caesar just as the other self-proclaimed successors of Rome did.
It’s funny that Rome is considered a good historical comparison, when the British Empire existed less than a century ago.
Rome had an agrarian slave economy. Britain, a very modern financial system and industrial economy. If there’s a wealth of insight to be drawn from comparisons, it’s probably gonna be from the latter and not the former.
The US is, what, 40% farmland and another 13% wilderness. Add to that the 13th amendment and the most imprisoned populace per capita?
The US is absolutely an agrarian slave economy.
<Both? Both. It’s both.jpg>
It’s three failing historical empires in a trenchcoat. It’s wild how you can vaguely gesture to almost any terrible moment in history and find strong parallels to modern problems in the US and the world.
“yes, we’re here to, uh… See a movie”
“Psst, ask if they have any slaves”
“Shut up, Rome! You’re gonna get us busted! Ask if they have any tea!”
Is it falling? Feels like it’s just gonna prop itself into a fascist perpetuity like Russia or North Korea.
Yeah that’s the fall buddy
Right, I guess in hindsight it feels more like the inevitable endgame/result of capitalism.
If a tower of economic and political power slowly - but somehow also suddenly - falls into a disorganized pile of xenophobic horseshit, did it make a sound?
spoiler
Yes, the sound is a collective “haha… what the fuck?!”
It really feels more like the fall of Rome to me. Or the 3rd Reich.
We should start making bets based on our feelings ;-)
Without a shared righteous moral code, what else can we expect but men being wolves to their fellow men and a community’s inevitable implosion?
Are you the kind of monotheist that thinks that Project2025’s vision of state enforced Christianity is the right idea, or are you the kind that thinks it’s exactly the wrong idea?
Lol. I haven’t read much about it but a quick search showed me that the people at the top of that project are basically Biblical villains. 😅
It’s the perennial Problem of Evil (or, in modern terms, the problem of Cluster B Personality Disorders).
And nobody has ever been able to solve it. Not religion, not moral philosophy, not civic or moral education, not political philosophy, none of it. The sociopaths and narcissists will always infiltrate, corrupt, and eventually corrode, any institution, public or private, wherein they find they can gather power, prestige, and wealth.
Discover a cure for Sociopathy and Narcissism, and you solve 95% of humanity’s problems overnight.
Honestly, I think pure monotheism (believing we will all have to explain our choices to the Creator, the Merciful, the Almighty, who gave us this life and universe for free and asks us only not to corrupt nor senselessly destroy the rest of his creation, more importantly, and acting like it) works pretty well, but I guess you could see my bias from my username, lol.
IME, it’s not the few sociopaths and psychologically extreme that ruin it though, it’s those who aren’t but through a lack of effort put into thought and emotional growth end up following these wolves in sheep clothing. No, “I was just following orders/the rules/what they said” is not and has never been a good defense, and God won’t like it either because if he didn’t want you to think you would’ve been a pig or a mouse, idk, lol. So, for this vast majority of regular, good spirited and passably reasonable people, I do think believing in God works. But we don’t have that in the West, we have the more satanic “nothing is true (the final conclusion of moral relativists) and nothing is forbidden”, whether you’re an atheist, a pagan or an American styled Catholic…
If monotheism cures sociopathy and narcissism (i.e., evil), then the Middle Ages - when the Universal Church ruled Europe and placed religion into every aspect of public life - would have been a Golden Age of peace, brotherhood, and loving kindness.
Alas, it was not. Creepy assholes just moved in and ran the Church and the State. And it all started with Constantine (“hey, Jesus visited me and told me that he’s real, and that I should be running everything by threat of violence. How neat is that?”). And continued on from there - justifying violence and exploitation through divine fiat (“trust me, God says the land and gold all belong to me.”). That’s how it works.
The message of Jesus goes in quick (but people don’t read and just listen to some dude in a funny hat/robe…) and has the power to bring people together to work for a better future, but yeah, people have to do their part and we’re all fallible and have at least some moments of heightened stupidity and emotional turbulence. But I think it’s better to actually believe that A, B and C are immutably wrong (wanton destruction, adultery, excessive greed, etc etc) than to believe everything is negotiable, that good and bad are cultural in nature (it’s just lazy thinking too tbh), cause the perceptive, empathetic ones would’ve known it regardless and would’ve acted that way whether they could express it as an ideology or not, and the lesser among us in prosociality need the push.
I assume everything you just wrote is based on faith, because it’s not supported at all by facts.
In personal experience. Believing the way I and many others have certainly helps you check yourself before you wreck yourself/your surroundings constantly, and ends in having the self-respect and self-esteem that comes from being a responsible, helpful, peaceful member of society (well, we try, but the better you get at controlling your anger or your nerves or whatever and being easier on the world, the better you feel). It fills the void that shopping, hooking up, using drugs and consuming mindless entertainment eventually fail at filling. Idk how to make people realize it besides exemplifying IRL and yapping about it, and I don’t think anyone can do anything more about it either.
yanks have a shared moral code, it’s called movies and television.
SoFt PoWeR
And junk food
