I considered myself a Libertarian for a few years. I was a disillusioned Republican during the George Bush days and Libertarianism really grew on me. I voted for Gary Johnson twice.
As I became more concerned about climate change, I could not see a viable Libertarian solution to it. Private business is more than happy to keep chugging away with fossil fuels until it’s far too late.
For Libertarianism to work, these same private businesses need to do the right thing voluntarily. In Atlas Shrugged, those businessmen and women are doing what is right for their business and it just so happens to be what is right for everyone else, that isn’t always the case. All too often, what is right for business goes against what is right for society. Once I realized this, everything unraveled for me.
So anyway, here I am, years later, voting for Democrats because I’ve got no other option as the GOP became more and more insane since I left.
Anyone who is a libertarian is unfamiliar with game theory. Some problems happen when individual people act in their own self-interest, but the collective outcome is harmful. Climate change is a prime example.
It seems to me like American libertarianism isn’t truly libertarianism - its focus is on freedom for capitalists, not freedom for people (corporations are not people). In theory, libertarianism is guided by the principal of non-aggression. Passing laws to fight climate change does not violate the principal of non-aggression, despite what the capitalists claim.
I wish this were true, but what you are describing is more akin to the Democratic party’s platform. Laws by the Democratic party are passed so people and companies don’t violate the principle of non-aggression. For example, besides climate change, regulation on banking is to prevent banking from taking people’s money and just going out of business.
The Libertarian party doesn’t support the principle of non-aggression in practice. By this definition, the Democratic party would be the true libertarians or liberals.
When governments try to tackle environmental issues (which is hypocritical, as governments are the largest polluters), they use a punishing approach that rarely, if ever, solves the problem
Progressive policies tend to line up with classic Libertarianism.
Also, modern Libertarians tend to be literally just the dissolution of the federal government and their own personal rights at the expense of other’s rights, none of which is Libertarianism.
I think you misunderstood my point. What you’re referring to as “libertarianism” and “the Libertarian party” is what I referred to as “American libertarianism.”
I don’t believe true libertarianism exists in the USA. I agree with your point that the Democratic party most closely aligns with the theory of libertarianism. It sounds like you agree with the point I was trying to make, but maybe misinterpreted it.
Edit: I want to add that the Libertarian party in America doesn’t follow the principal of non-aggression as I understand it.
That’s disappointing. Maybe “modern libertarianism” would have been more accurate than “American libertarianism.” According to Wikipedia, in the 1950’s libertarianism was synonymous with liberalism, which seems to align much better with my interpretation.
I love how they just drop the statement that governments are the largest polluters with no sources, supporting evidence, or even explanation. Just saying something obviously does not make it true.
Exactly, they ask why they should have to contribute to letting disabled people not have to work. I ask why people too disabled to work should have to beg for sustainance or live in poverty
American Libertarians have no experience dealing with other people and are incredibly naive. At least one customer service job would be very horizon-broadening for them.
As I became more concerned about climate change, I could not see a viable Libertarian solution to it.
The libertarian solution to climate change would involve privatizing the commons: sell off the atmosphere to some private entity which would then issue licenses for emitting, have standing to sue unlicensed polluters for violating its property rights, etc.
In other words, basically cap & trade but with a for-profit corporation in charge instead of the government, for no good reason.
At least, that’d be the theory. In reality, that’s how you get Spaceballs.
Libertarianism also was my first stop out of my childhood religious right upbringing. I still tend to see issues from a libertarian framing – i.e., if it’s not hurting anybody why should the government care? – but most US libertarians seem weirdly fixated on ideas like “why can’t I dump 5,000 gallons of hydrofluoric acid into a hole in the ground if the hole is on my own property?” or “why shouldn’t I be allowed to enter into a contract with somebody that allows me to hunt them for sport?” or especially “why can’t I have sex with a minor if they say it’s OK?”, where there’s really obvious personal and societal harms involved and the only way that you can think otherwise is if you’ve engaged in some serious motivated reasoning.
Whereas my thinking these days is more like, “who does it hurt if somebody decides to change their outward appearance to match how they feel inside?” and the like – i.e., the right to personal autonomy and free expression, rather than the right to do whatever I want to others as long as I can somehow coerce them into agreeing to it. I don’t have much patience for the anarchist side of left-libertarianism – in my experience you need robust systems in place to keep bad actors from running amok, and a state without a monopoly on violence is simply ceding that monopoly to whoever wants to take it up for their own ends – but that starting point of libertarian thought, that people sold be free in their choices until those choices run up against somebody else’s freedoms – is still fundamentally valid.
I always say it’s not crazy to become a Libertarian as much as it is to remain one. It just astounds me that anyone could debate those positions for a length of time without starting to realize how tenuous most of them are.
Oh, so it’s faster for you to take a shit on command than it is to have trousers to collect the shit so you can just reach back and grab it when you want to?
If so, I’m impressed.
I imagine you haven’t flung much shit or spent much time thinking about it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you can just shit when you want to. You’re probably just a beta trying to impress the shit flinging alpha shit veterans though. :p
If I’m wrong though, all hail floofloof. We’re not worthy!
One of the biggest failings with a lot of idealist political systems (anarchism, libertarianism, communism, etc.) is that they try to do away with hierarchies and bosses. But, those are inevitable for great apes. A good setup provides a way to limit and manage the bosses that will inevitably appear. Yes, it legitimizes their power, but by acknowledging it, it also provides a way to limit it.
Disclaimer: I support pigouvian taxes on greenhouse gas emissions.
Long ago, one libertarian solution to climate change was insurance. So you’d buy disaster insurance for your house, then the insurer would bet that pollution would go up. This creates a financial incentive to reduce emissions. Best case scenario, your insurance payments are a slight reimbursement for a voluntary reduction. Worst case scenario, your insurance payments essentially bribe their workers to sabotage.
However, the Coase Theorem says this only works while transaction costs are low. And you’d need long-term contracts that aren’t realistic with today’s interest rates. So it would take decades to establish the financial infrastructure necessary.
… It’s happening right now bro. You’re alive right now, and we’re having extreme weather events right now.
Climate change isn’t a point in which either before that point nothing happens and after that point something bad happens, instead as we continue with bad practices, things get continually worse.
We’re having extreme heat, right now. Places with longer hurricane seasons, or where hurricanes are now way worse, etc. And things can still worsen.
What you seem to be saying is that, you don’t care about your future and minimizing future issues, but also don’t care about any family or friends that you have. Society has done so much, that here you are born, with Internet access to a federated app, electricity, many of life’s privileges compared to our ancestors, people now and in the future would appreciate what help you can provide now.
you are born, with Internet access to a federated app, electricity, many of life’s privileges compared to our ancestors.
Those were knowledge, most of things were born because our ancestors needed them for own benefit. Here with climate change. First of all, My small country doesn’t make a difference, I don’t have a car, I don’t spend more than 400 kw monthly. If you really want to make a change, stop having kids. Less carbon print to ZERO carbon print, but a lot aren’t willing to do it. I am not willing to do anything that involves changing my ways of life.
Genuine question: why do you care about climate change if you would be dead by then?
Empathy, or caring about how other people are affected, even if it doesn’t affect you personally. Empathy is normal and healthy.
Better question is, why are 60+yo Capitalists who already have more wealth than they could possibly spend before they die, so desperate to hold and collect even more wealth?
But most of this people doesn’t even exist in the present. I mean, isn’t better that stop having kids, you can kill 2 birds this way: Reduce footprint to ZERO, avoid future generations suffering of global warming.
Whatever quality of life you have enjoyed beyond living naked in a cave eating bugs and berries you owe to the people who came before you. Not just your ancestors, but the people who invented tools and discovered natural laws and organized societies and legal systems, the people who built the cities with their sewage systems and hospitals and electricity, the people who developed fertilizers and antibiotics and undergarnments that don’t itch like a thousand angry fleas are having a rave in your crotch. And now, after enjoying the fruits of 10,000 years of civilization, you decide that you’re the be-all and end-all of people and everybody who comes after you can go fuck themselves? Bad person. Plain and simple.
To be honest I’m in all to human extinction, actually I’m all for all life extinction. Life is based in predatory model mostly with exception of some plants and bacteria.
Life can be wonderful and precious. If your life in particular happens to be “shit, crap and nothing”, are you really so self-centered that you think everyone’s life is just like yours and we’re all only pretending it isn’t?
Life is what you make of it. There are happy people in slums living under awful conditions, and then there are people like Elon Musk, the richest man in the world and obviously miserable. Anybody can be happy and enjoy life with a simple shift of perspective, and work to improve whatever bothers them.
If your life sucks so much that you’d rather all life become extinct, have you considered the possibility that you might have unipolar or bipolar depression? This is not at all a normal way of seeing things, and medication might help you immensely. And if that is the case, then I take back what I said about you being a bad person. Mental illness takes a large toll on our worldview and often renders us incapable of expending the energy to care about anyone other than ourselves. We behave and think just like a bad persom, but it’s not actually our fault. We just aren’t capable of being any different. I’ve been there. Thankfully I’m not there anymore.
That is the definition of unbridled selfishness, bordering on sociopathy.
If this is truly what you think and drives how you behave then you are a leech on everyone else that will follow in your footsteps.
I won’t have children either, but I still want the world to be better for them, and I do the best within my means to make that happen.
People like you, when they’re competent, are the ones that rise to the top of the corporate ladder and own businesses that expound the worst parts of capitalistic society. Greed, selfishness, disdain for the plight of others, no thought for consequences as long as they don’t affect you personally.
So, don’t care if you don’t want to. But internalize that you’re a POS if that’s actually how you feel.
I think if you’re under 50 years old, you’ll probably be impacted by the effects of climate change for a majority of your life at this point. The change won’t be an instant thing like in The Day After Tomorrow after you’re long dead, it’s happening now when you’re alive.
The basis of classical libertarianism is the non-aggression principal, which basically means “don’t harm others.” Seems like that would include causing harm after you die. But modern libertarianism seems to have a very strange interpretation of that principal…
I considered myself a Libertarian for a few years. I was a disillusioned Republican during the George Bush days and Libertarianism really grew on me. I voted for Gary Johnson twice.
As I became more concerned about climate change, I could not see a viable Libertarian solution to it. Private business is more than happy to keep chugging away with fossil fuels until it’s far too late.
For Libertarianism to work, these same private businesses need to do the right thing voluntarily. In Atlas Shrugged, those businessmen and women are doing what is right for their business and it just so happens to be what is right for everyone else, that isn’t always the case. All too often, what is right for business goes against what is right for society. Once I realized this, everything unraveled for me.
So anyway, here I am, years later, voting for Democrats because I’ve got no other option as the GOP became more and more insane since I left.
Anyone who is a libertarian is unfamiliar with game theory. Some problems happen when individual people act in their own self-interest, but the collective outcome is harmful. Climate change is a prime example.
It seems to me like American libertarianism isn’t truly libertarianism - its focus is on freedom for capitalists, not freedom for people (corporations are not people). In theory, libertarianism is guided by the principal of non-aggression. Passing laws to fight climate change does not violate the principal of non-aggression, despite what the capitalists claim.
I wish this were true, but what you are describing is more akin to the Democratic party’s platform. Laws by the Democratic party are passed so people and companies don’t violate the principle of non-aggression. For example, besides climate change, regulation on banking is to prevent banking from taking people’s money and just going out of business.
The Libertarian party doesn’t support the principle of non-aggression in practice. By this definition, the Democratic party would be the true libertarians or liberals.
For example:
Australia: https://www.libertarians.org.au/wa_platform
And like you said, the US one too: https://lp.org/environment-energy-resources/
Progressive policies tend to line up with classic Libertarianism.
Also, modern Libertarians tend to be literally just the dissolution of the federal government and their own personal rights at the expense of other’s rights, none of which is Libertarianism.
You said this much better than I did. One of the reasons why Democrats are called liberals.
I think you misunderstood my point. What you’re referring to as “libertarianism” and “the Libertarian party” is what I referred to as “American libertarianism.”
I don’t believe true libertarianism exists in the USA. I agree with your point that the Democratic party most closely aligns with the theory of libertarianism. It sounds like you agree with the point I was trying to make, but maybe misinterpreted it.
Edit: I want to add that the Libertarian party in America doesn’t follow the principal of non-aggression as I understand it.
The closest thing the US has to a true libertarian is Bernie Sanders.
Very true, at least at that level in politics.
Oh yeah, I think I was confusing in my response. I should have said:
All libertarian parties both in and outside of the United States don’t ascribe to your interpretation of the theory of libertarianism.
I included Australia as an example, but here is Canada’s platform as well.
That’s disappointing. Maybe “modern libertarianism” would have been more accurate than “American libertarianism.” According to Wikipedia, in the 1950’s libertarianism was synonymous with liberalism, which seems to align much better with my interpretation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Etymology
I wonder if Penn’s (old) interpretation of libertarianism was the same as mine.
I love how they just drop the statement that governments are the largest polluters with no sources, supporting evidence, or even explanation. Just saying something obviously does not make it true.
Or they’re so used to their privilege that they don’t understand how protected they are by society.
Exactly, they ask why they should have to contribute to letting disabled people not have to work. I ask why people too disabled to work should have to beg for sustainance or live in poverty
American Libertarians have no experience dealing with other people and are incredibly naive. At least one customer service job would be very horizon-broadening for them.
The libertarian solution to climate change would involve privatizing the commons: sell off the atmosphere to some private entity which would then issue licenses for emitting, have standing to sue unlicensed polluters for violating its property rights, etc.
In other words, basically cap & trade but with a for-profit corporation in charge instead of the government, for no good reason.
At least, that’d be the theory. In reality, that’s how you get Spaceballs.
Libertarianism also was my first stop out of my childhood religious right upbringing. I still tend to see issues from a libertarian framing – i.e., if it’s not hurting anybody why should the government care? – but most US libertarians seem weirdly fixated on ideas like “why can’t I dump 5,000 gallons of hydrofluoric acid into a hole in the ground if the hole is on my own property?” or “why shouldn’t I be allowed to enter into a contract with somebody that allows me to hunt them for sport?” or especially “why can’t I have sex with a minor if they say it’s OK?”, where there’s really obvious personal and societal harms involved and the only way that you can think otherwise is if you’ve engaged in some serious motivated reasoning.
Whereas my thinking these days is more like, “who does it hurt if somebody decides to change their outward appearance to match how they feel inside?” and the like – i.e., the right to personal autonomy and free expression, rather than the right to do whatever I want to others as long as I can somehow coerce them into agreeing to it. I don’t have much patience for the anarchist side of left-libertarianism – in my experience you need robust systems in place to keep bad actors from running amok, and a state without a monopoly on violence is simply ceding that monopoly to whoever wants to take it up for their own ends – but that starting point of libertarian thought, that people sold be free in their choices until those choices run up against somebody else’s freedoms – is still fundamentally valid.
I always say it’s not crazy to become a Libertarian as much as it is to remain one. It just astounds me that anyone could debate those positions for a length of time without starting to realize how tenuous most of them are.
The problem with Communism is that if requires non greedy people.
The problem with Libertarianism is that it requires non greedy rich people.
Exactly. We’re nothing but monkeys in trousers. We have a lot of evolving yet to do, psychologically speaking.
You guys are wearing trousers? I find it slows down the whole process of throwing feces at my enemies.
Oh, so it’s faster for you to take a shit on command than it is to have trousers to collect the shit so you can just reach back and grab it when you want to?
If so, I’m impressed.
I imagine you haven’t flung much shit or spent much time thinking about it. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe you can just shit when you want to. You’re probably just a beta trying to impress the shit flinging alpha shit veterans though. :p
If I’m wrong though, all hail floofloof. We’re not worthy!
One of the biggest failings with a lot of idealist political systems (anarchism, libertarianism, communism, etc.) is that they try to do away with hierarchies and bosses. But, those are inevitable for great apes. A good setup provides a way to limit and manage the bosses that will inevitably appear. Yes, it legitimizes their power, but by acknowledging it, it also provides a way to limit it.
Disclaimer: I support pigouvian taxes on greenhouse gas emissions.
Long ago, one libertarian solution to climate change was insurance. So you’d buy disaster insurance for your house, then the insurer would bet that pollution would go up. This creates a financial incentive to reduce emissions. Best case scenario, your insurance payments are a slight reimbursement for a voluntary reduction. Worst case scenario, your insurance payments essentially bribe their workers to sabotage.
However, the Coase Theorem says this only works while transaction costs are low. And you’d need long-term contracts that aren’t realistic with today’s interest rates. So it would take decades to establish the financial infrastructure necessary.
Genuine question: why do you care about climate change if you would be dead by then?
… It’s happening right now bro. You’re alive right now, and we’re having extreme weather events right now.
Climate change isn’t a point in which either before that point nothing happens and after that point something bad happens, instead as we continue with bad practices, things get continually worse.
We’re having extreme heat, right now. Places with longer hurricane seasons, or where hurricanes are now way worse, etc. And things can still worsen.
What you seem to be saying is that, you don’t care about your future and minimizing future issues, but also don’t care about any family or friends that you have. Society has done so much, that here you are born, with Internet access to a federated app, electricity, many of life’s privileges compared to our ancestors, people now and in the future would appreciate what help you can provide now.
you are born, with Internet access to a federated app, electricity, many of life’s privileges compared to our ancestors. Those were knowledge, most of things were born because our ancestors needed them for own benefit. Here with climate change. First of all, My small country doesn’t make a difference, I don’t have a car, I don’t spend more than 400 kw monthly. If you really want to make a change, stop having kids. Less carbon print to ZERO carbon print, but a lot aren’t willing to do it. I am not willing to do anything that involves changing my ways of life.
Empathy, or caring about how other people are affected, even if it doesn’t affect you personally. Empathy is normal and healthy.
Better question is, why are 60+yo Capitalists who already have more wealth than they could possibly spend before they die, so desperate to hold and collect even more wealth?
But most of this people doesn’t even exist in the present. I mean, isn’t better that stop having kids, you can kill 2 birds this way: Reduce footprint to ZERO, avoid future generations suffering of global warming.
So you don’t feel bad for future humans because they’re assholes for existing?
I can’t feel empathy for people that doesn’t exist. Simple as that.
Damn. You’re a cold motherfucker.
How about a 1yo baby that will suffer the effects of climate change their whole life, can you feel empathy for a 1yo baby?
I feel more anger about the parents that brings that child to suffer to this world.
Okay so you’re too hateful towards complete strangers to have empathy for a 1yo baby.
“Why should I care about other people?” is a question that comes up a lot, and I am deeply suspicious of people who don’t care about others.
But we are talking about future here, some of that people doesn’t even exist
Because “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit” - Greek proverb
If we don’t cover the things that our children (or nieces/nephews) will benefit from, no one else will. There are no adults in the room. It’s just us.
What children? I will not have nieces nor nephews because I do not have first grade brothers or sisters. I mean sorry but I don’t care.
Then you’re a bad person. It’s quite simple.
Whatever quality of life you have enjoyed beyond living naked in a cave eating bugs and berries you owe to the people who came before you. Not just your ancestors, but the people who invented tools and discovered natural laws and organized societies and legal systems, the people who built the cities with their sewage systems and hospitals and electricity, the people who developed fertilizers and antibiotics and undergarnments that don’t itch like a thousand angry fleas are having a rave in your crotch. And now, after enjoying the fruits of 10,000 years of civilization, you decide that you’re the be-all and end-all of people and everybody who comes after you can go fuck themselves? Bad person. Plain and simple.
To be honest I’m in all to human extinction, actually I’m all for all life extinction. Life is based in predatory model mostly with exception of some plants and bacteria.
You have a very limited view of what life is. I pity you deeply.
And what is life? 70 years is shit is crap is nothing.
Life can be wonderful and precious. If your life in particular happens to be “shit, crap and nothing”, are you really so self-centered that you think everyone’s life is just like yours and we’re all only pretending it isn’t?
Life is what you make of it. There are happy people in slums living under awful conditions, and then there are people like Elon Musk, the richest man in the world and obviously miserable. Anybody can be happy and enjoy life with a simple shift of perspective, and work to improve whatever bothers them.
If your life sucks so much that you’d rather all life become extinct, have you considered the possibility that you might have unipolar or bipolar depression? This is not at all a normal way of seeing things, and medication might help you immensely. And if that is the case, then I take back what I said about you being a bad person. Mental illness takes a large toll on our worldview and often renders us incapable of expending the energy to care about anyone other than ourselves. We behave and think just like a bad persom, but it’s not actually our fault. We just aren’t capable of being any different. I’ve been there. Thankfully I’m not there anymore.
That is the definition of unbridled selfishness, bordering on sociopathy.
If this is truly what you think and drives how you behave then you are a leech on everyone else that will follow in your footsteps.
I won’t have children either, but I still want the world to be better for them, and I do the best within my means to make that happen.
People like you, when they’re competent, are the ones that rise to the top of the corporate ladder and own businesses that expound the worst parts of capitalistic society. Greed, selfishness, disdain for the plight of others, no thought for consequences as long as they don’t affect you personally.
So, don’t care if you don’t want to. But internalize that you’re a POS if that’s actually how you feel.
Still I can’t feel that because first those future people doesn’t exist and second I prefer that future people don’t exist
So yeah, sociopath. Shrug
Sociopath for not being able to feel empathy to inexistent people? Wow …
pissing in your water supply rn cuz i dont care
We were talking about global warming here
Yeah, which could also affect me. But pissing in your water supply doesnt affect me, why should i care :)
Well if you do on 30 years you are free to do so. I won’t be here anyway…
…do you not care?
Not really, I would be dead by then, no family. I mean if I have to make a great change in my life because of climate change, forget about it.
I’ll give you a point for honesty, but to also be honest, I think you’re a selfish arsehole.
So? Doesn’t matter I’ll be dead.
I think if you’re under 50 years old, you’ll probably be impacted by the effects of climate change for a majority of your life at this point. The change won’t be an instant thing like in The Day After Tomorrow after you’re long dead, it’s happening now when you’re alive.
You are so optimistic you think I will be living more than 30 years since now lol. Bad lifestyle.
Well, aren’t you just a ray of sunshine? Bless your heart.
I’m sorry to see downvotes on a genuine question. From a libertarian point of view, the question is very valid.
The basis of classical libertarianism is the non-aggression principal, which basically means “don’t harm others.” Seems like that would include causing harm after you die. But modern libertarianism seems to have a very strange interpretation of that principal…