These people sound like exact copies of the people saying voting in 2000 didn’t matter, and that turned out to be the most politically consequential of my lifetime. Gore was imperfect as they all are, but holy fuck did Dubya fuck up literally everything he touched.
Among many, many, many things, Dubya started forever wars killing untold hundreds of thousands of people. He accelerated oil and gas production, absolutely setting the Climate Change world on a pace for disaster. He seated Alito, unquestionably the biggest monster currently on the Supreme Court. And he passed a monster tax cut for the rich that set us on this path of unrestrained deficit spending.
And that’s just the headlines. Remember when he tried to put his personal lawyer on the Supreme Court? lol
Gen X already tried this 25 years ago and it fucked the world up so badly that we need to be saved by the future generations. Imagine not learning that lesson and doing it again.
I always wonder how Gore might have acted in response to 9/11.
Probably a similar initial response, but no Iraq War two years later. Which would make a… massive (and positive, in case that wasn’t clear) change in the direction and concerns of American foreign policy.
He wouldn’t have suspended civil rights, permitted torture and made a mockery of the rule of law.
We think that yes. I’m a gore fan.
But remember there were 100s of people driving towards those topics. Career defense and security types making their damnedest case that they needed those tools to avoid 9/11 2.0.
I hope gore, and the staff he surrounded himself with would have had the vision to avoid all that, despite the pressure.
Never forget. If you want an even crazier mindfuck, watch the original “Utopia”, the original 2013 British version. For real.
Based on after-the-fact reports, it may never have happened.
Maybe that’s just exposure to all the conspiracy theories, though, I dunno if he would have acted any differently than Bush did to the intelligence reports.
They had intelligence that terrorists from Al-Queda were training and planning for an attack, hijacking commercial planes.
Bush et al did next to nothing with that intel, at best.
It’s questionable if it’d have even happened had gore been at the desk, y’know, because he’d have probably actually read the imminent attack report about the plot before it happened.
True dat. He wasn’t part of the cabal. That’s also why he wasn’t elected, in spite of winning. Just like Hillary.
What really gets my goat is how some people now act like George W Bush is this respectable elder statesman that only did his best and oh, how cute, he’s friends with Michelle Obama. Like, sure, next to Trump he looks like a political savant, but come on, he still was a total piece of shit that did lasting damage.
Don’t forget in his first week or so he passed No Child Left Behind, which has irreparably damaged the education of children in this country.
https://www.epi.org/publication/what_went_wrong_with_no_child_left_behind/
W was catastrophic. Honestly him and Reagan are the cause of most of our issues.
Nixon deserves a mention there too.
If you’re going to mention Nixon, then you have to include Andrew Johnson.
Nixon is inadvertently responsible for the creation of the right wing media circus which I would argue is fully responsible for W and trump.
Man, what I would do to have an unabashed giant nerd for president. I forget what people’s issue with Gore even was.
Al Gore won the popular vote, but there was some sketchiness down in Florida. During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence. Setting up the supreme Court to decide Bush won Florida.
During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence.
In other words, the 2000 coup succeeded.
It’s why they project so hard about Democrats cheating elections.
The Republicans have been for decades. And can’t stand sometimes enough people show up that they still lose.
Damn that sounds really really familiar. Almost like it happened just a couple years ago.
Gore was the watershed moment of the white left deciding no progress is allowed to happen unless it’s by their hands and they get all the credit.
Nader fired up his campaign in swing states as an act of retaliation against Gore posing himself as the climate candidate.
That’s it.
The Greens had a meltdown that the thing that usually happens to third parties in this country, that is having their platforms become the mainstream if they make enough noise, was happening to them, and they decided we’re not allowed to make any progress on climate unless we do it through them so fuck Gore and fuck anyone who’d dare support that disgusting “mOdErAtE!”
I, personally sat out that election because I didn’t like Al’s wife, Tipper Gore. She led the charge in a bunch of manufactured outrage about obscenity in music. I was also a jaded, cynical gen-xer who’d been hearing the importance of voting as long as I could remember, but every election was just choosing between a douchbag and a turd sandwich.
Looking back on everything that happened after that election, it’s insane to imagine how different things would be now if Gore had been in office instead of the criminal enterprise that we ended up with.
Though the Bush presidency lead to Cheney’s wife taking up that mantle anyways.
He literally lost the popular vote, how does “vote more” mean anything
Protest voters who supported Stein alone would have flipped every single rust belt state had they decided on the country over feeling validated in wanting to vote “for” someone, and Zoomers and Millenials simply matching their share of the population in turnout could have propelled Bernie to the front of the primaries and over the finish line.
Nevermind how not voting let trump happen, not voting let clinton happen.
True story. If Gen X didn’t vote they literally died. /s
Be boring somewhere else.
Reading these comments, it feels people are having a giant trolley problem moment. Do I vote for Biden and throw the switch so fewer people die, or do I not do it and let more people die, but at least I’m not complicit then?
Do I vote for Biden and throw the switch so fewer people die
I can’t stand Trump but the past 4 years have not convinced me this is the case. Under Biden the US is actively bombing civilians, supporting apartheid, disrupting global trade, and still imprisoning human beings at the mexican border.
Trump was ineffectual and isolationist - he could be the actual harm reduction choice through sheer incompetence.
BRUH, Trump formally recgonized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and not Tel Aviv.
Thinking he’s gonna not give isreal anything they want. Evangelicals love to support israel because they think it’ll help lead to rapture/end of the world where they’ll be saved by god.
I don’t think you have as good of a grasp on the nuances of trumps supporter base as you think.
Don’t worry I won’t be voting for Trump. My take on trump supporter base is they’re typically older lazy boomers who want to yell at their TVs as trump “owns the libs.” Look at january 6th his base literally had to be invited inside to invade the capital and they just stood around gawking lol. Utterly inept.
Recognizing Jerusalem didn’t kill 25,000 Palestinians, but Biden has given unconditional support to civilian bombing in the middle east.
Neither candidate has done anything to convince me to vote for them. The sooner we all figure out voting isn’t going to fix things, the better.
Recognizing Jerusalem didn’t kill 25,000 Palestinians
Didn’t it? It seems very plausible that Israel’s most powerful ally taking this huge step that no previous president was willing to take could have easily galvanized Hamas’s resolve and fanned the flames leading up to the recent attacks and resulting Israeli siege.
This shit has been going on for decades. It’s foolish to treat the recent events as an isolated incident, or to compartmentalize the repercussions of US foreign policy to individual presidential administrations.
Recognizing Jerusalem didn’t kill 25,000 Palestinians
Didn’t it?
No, people firing rockets and bullets killed 25,000 people. This is the real world where real things impact real lives, and Biden shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons enables them to continue killing, not names or lines on a map.
This shit has been going on for decades. It’s foolish to treat the recent events as an isolated incident
Definitely agree with you there, I think it’s important for all of us to be educated about the history of American support for this cycle of abuse. I don’t plan to vote for any person who continues to support the killing of innocent people suffering under an apartheid regime.
Do you think people think about their culpability?
I mean, the argument “I don’t want to vote for Biden since he’s supporting a genocide, despite the fact my apathy may cause another person to get elected instead that supports more genocide” kinda sounds like that, yeah.
I am on the other side of the pond, so I have no vote there, but I don’t know what I’d be doing. I voted in elections where the best idea I had was a protest vote. I voted for joke parties as well. I never voted for someone who openly supported genocide though. Feels like a deal with the devil at least, like allying yourself with Stalin to fight Hitler.
American here. It sucks. We often have a lesser of evil vote. I don’t see an alternative. I’d vote for someone that ran on a platform of unfucking our elections / political parties. I have ill will toward both parties. It used to be very near equal, 15 or so years ago but through the tea party movement, into Trumpism, watching them ratfuck Obama out of 2 Supreme Court picks, then Jan6, smfh. I’ve lost all respect for Republicans. Dems have me in that respect because i have no other choice. That needs to change. That said…
I will go vote for Biden (and feel fine with it) because he’s trying. He’s pushing policy forward, even trying to reach across the aisle on important things. The other side of the aisle are clowns though and are doing some kind of performance art for their base rather than keeping the country running. Biden deserves my vote here. I don’t see evidence of anything other than him trying to unfuck the nation and return stability. More of that please.
Also, he’s not Trump. Fuck that traitor.
But choosing not to vote is also an action with consequences. It doesn’t absolve anyone.
I would assume that’s second option above and kind of the entire point of the trolley problem.
There are legitimate criticisms to be had of Biden, but in every case, Trump is unambiguously worse. If Trump were pro-Palestine, I could maybe understand single-issue voters preferring him to Biden…but he’s not.
To be honest, I have little hope for 2024. Genuine fake news is rampant, and in pretty much every case it hurts Biden (misinformation about the economy, etc.). I’ll be voting a straight Dem ticket in my very red state, and hoping against all hope that uninformed voters somehow do the right thing.
no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump. they’re saying they won’t vote for biden
Lmao, that’s the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid when you think about it. Especially in response to this meme.
In FPTP not voting for the chosen democratic representative means one vote less is required for the conservative. It doesn’t matter if that’s because you added a vote for Democrats, or didn’t vote at all. Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.
that the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid
I voted for Howie in 2020 and Biden won. you don’t seem to know how voting works.
You don’t seem to know what anecdotal evidence or statistical analysis works.
Biden barely won, and you didn’t get the candidate you wanted. In 2016, it’s people like you who gave trump the victory
Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.
this claim is obviously false, since I have provided proof against it. if you want to weaken the claim, moving the goalposts, that’s fine, but don’t break a sweat.
Not sure if you’re just being intentionally thick or a troll.
Youre explaining yourself that despite you voting against him, Biden won, and you didn’t want Trump and the person you voted for didn’t win. So your actions gave you the least chance of having a candidate you were aligned with.
If anything, you are giving proof that it’s a dumb thing to do. But that would be anecdotal evidence, and there’s no need for that.
If you manually run the results and the effects of 3rd parties, it’s pretty clear that it makes no sense in First Past the Post.
It’s a thing known as The spoiler effect, or vote splitting and has always been a documented thing that dumb people don’t understand. Who do you think funds these 3rd parties in the first place…
Youre being played.
people who voted for Trump gave him the victory. 50 years of people like Joe biden running the Democrat party gave Trump the victory. don’t blame me.
But they’ve been running the conservative party the same way for 50 years too. You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.
Literally what the meme is about. Tell us, what have you gained from it aside from more frustration and hate? Biden didnt learn anything from 2016. You can blame biden when you lose your democracy, but you’ll still have lost your democracy. I wouldn’t wait for Biden to fix that. The democratic party is more than one person making decisions, and handing the power to your enemy is not how you make changes within your own team.
You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.
no, i’m not
Unless you guys are ready to have the revolution today, you need to vote Biden if you don’t want Trump to win. Period.
That seems good , burn his shit down. However, i think Biden is who needs to win if you want a revolution. Trump will just normalize the removal of democracy, the system will accept it and dissent will be crushed. Biden winning will force the republicans to do something clearly outside of the game and splinter the powers of the state.
The Democratic party when it absolutely refuses to appeal to anyone, but feels entitled to their votes anyway:
It’s like they’re saying, “If you don’t vote for us because we shifted to the right, it’s your fault that we shifted to the right to get more votes on the right.”
It seems like the party doesn’t refuse to appeal to certain voters…
Why do Americans only have these two candidate choices in the presidential election? They seem so diametrically opposed, it is difficult to fathom how a majority of Americans could think either align with them politically.
It’s a natural result of their election system. First-past-the-post strongly disincentivizes third parties from running due to the “spoiler effect” - say there was a similar candidate to Biden that was pro-Palestine, any votes for this candidate take away votes from Biden thus making it easier for Trump to win. Most people don’t align with either party, but they don’t get much of a choice.
If we don’t at least pretend to be willing to wield our voting power to influence our govt, we might as well give up and accept we live in an oligarchy.
Sometimes just the threat of violence is enough to get people to act. Biden has already changed his administrations public stance and rhetoric towards Israel at merely the risk of losing votes. Ideally it would have been because of the loss of human lives, but beggars can’t be choosers.
If those votes are important to him then Biden should earn them by not being complicit in a genocide. Maybe Biden is a Trump supporter by continuing to do so? After all if not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump, Biden doing genocide is also him voting for Trump.
All I’m hearing from your comment is we should all become single issue voters regardless of outcome. This is a bad take.
you’re right, we can’t be single issue voters. We can’t just focus on the palestine genocide. we should also focus on labor rights for all workers (nods to the railway workers); ending the for profit education system currently in place, not just temporarily pausing payments on student loan debt, or cancelling debt for a few people; Abolishing for profit prison systems; Abolishing legal slavery of incarcerated individuals; ensuring affordable medical care by enacting a single payer system similar to Canada; enforce a livable minimum wage; tax the rich at a fair rate; codify reproductive rights of women
Those are my issues and joe has failed on them. I’m not saying that Trump would be better, but don’t call me a single issue voter when all the issues are what joe has failed me on.
Yeah, all these are problems, but how is not voting or voting for the Republican Candidate (probably going to be Trump) will solve these issues? In most cases it won’t. You’re just upset at Biden personally for some of the decisions he made that were bad and want punish him personally for that so you can feel better. Even if it does cause way more problems than it solves. Even if it harms innocent people.
And hey, it’s fine and human to vengeful, but to be vengeful to the point of self harm is stupid. Don’t be stupid.
we keep putting it off as voting for the lesser of 2 evils. i held my nose and voted clinton in 16, voted biden in 20 and i have to vote for him again now. but when do i get to vote on someone who actually will do something i want them to do? 28? 32? ever? At what point should we stop voting for the lesser of evils and vote for someone we actually agree with?
Americans have some serious Stockholm syndrome if they believe voting for any of these candidates makes a meaningful difference when they are both war mongering fascists. The status quo can not be changed by voting but by anti-government protests forcing the current system to collapse.
Besides Roe ended under Biden, not Trump. There have also been more deportations under Biden than under Trump so this vote Biden or else blackmail isn’t even based on facts. It’s like choosing between Himmler and Hitler.
Both sides bad mhhhhhkay?
Get the fuck outta here, One side wants to uphold democracy and the other wants to bea adictatorship cult. And most bad things happening under biden are the result of 4 years of trump.Both sides are bad, yes. The fascists are far worse, of course, but it’s naive to think the DNC are some brave Democracy Defenders, when their sole interest is to uphold the rights and protections of Capital. Most of the bad things happening under Biden are actually because of Capitalism reaching an ever-later stage, Trump certainly made it worse but Biden isn’t making it better.
Should leftists vote for Biden to prevent Trump? 100%, abstaining from voting or voting third party is a spoiler vote in America and would result in fascists winning. Should liberals pretend that Leftists are the problem because leftists are understandably upset that they don’t have anyone to actually vote for, while liberals and fascists get to gleefully vote for their preferred candidates? Absolutely not.
Show me a functioning non capitalist society that is on the same or better level than the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, France… etc. i’ll wait.
Stop being delusional.What “level?” Development? Quality of Life? Wealth? Wealth drives development, and development drives quality of life. If I took Cuba, or even EZLN, and compared it with, say, Somalia, the non-Capitalist countries win on all 3 accounts. You can cherry pick if you want, but ultimately development is a process and takes time. Development is a stage, if Cuba became Capitalist today it wouldn’t be as developed as the US overnight, that’s silly.
Secondly, you’re assuming I want to replicate a currently existing country. That’s false. I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production. I don’t want to randomly reset a country to 0 progress and build up straight to Socialism, that’s absurd.
The very premise of your question is false, as you’re relying on a snapshot in history and not actually analyzing the mechanics of collective ownership. It’s an utter non-argument.
LMAO youre a tankie. No wonder youre delusional.
Have fun in your dreams.How exactly am I a tankie? The EZLN is a Libertarian Socialist collective, I explicitly mentioned it to provide multiple examples that only share the fact that they are leftist in structure. I’m in favor of Democratic ownership and operation of the Means of Production by and for the Workers, rather than having a bunch of petite dictators a la Capitalism.
Is the fact that you’re a landlord what drives you to be so immediately reactionary to anyone proposing we share ownership collectively?
I want the US, Germany, Finland, Spain, and France, along with all other countries, to shift to collective ownership of the Means of Production
i cannot capitalize LMAO further but i would.
LEMAO
You are so far removed from reality i cant even
What democracy are you talking about? All I see is a war mongering oligarchy. The problem isn’t with the president, it’s with the US itself.
I couldnt even dumb myself down enough to explain this to you. Grow a brain fascist
Socialists are fascists, got it. Is that you Ben Shiapiro?
Being politically apathetic while both siding democracy and fascism makes you a tanky. Letting fascists takeover our country isn’t a political position, it’s Russian propaganda.
Roe ended because of the three judges Trump appointed. Trump has promised to round up millions of immigrants into camps so they can be deported. Building an alternate reality for yourself to live in isn’t productive or compelling.
What are you even talking about? All recent US presidents have shown very clearly that they are all war mongering fascists that bomb third world countries, particularily the Middle East with no respect for human life. And if the US doesn’t do it itself, they let Israel do it for them. It doesn’t get any more racist than mass murdering brown people.
Furthermore, Biden has deported more people than Trump so far.
You’re proving my point that stockholm syndrome runs rampant in the US. People need to realize that it’s not the president that’s the issue, it’s the US as a whole. And I do think the US is more dangerous than any other country in the world, including Russia so call me a Russian puppet all you want.
But no, other side bad. They’re playing you all against each other and that allows the oligarchs to stay in power. How you don’t even realize that is absolutely mind blowing.
Tell me how a two party oligarchy is democratic in any way. I’m waiting. Oh that’s right you can’t, because it’s obviously anything but.
I focus my anger on the US government, not who’s the current puppet of it.
No, Trump is a fascist. Obama and Biden are not fascists, they are neoliberals. W Bush was a neoconservative.
Trump is planning on rounding up and deporting millions of immigrants. This is not comparable to what Biden has done.
Russia so call me a Russian puppet all you want. You’re a tankie parroting Russian propaganda. This election is a clear choice between democracy and fascism.
But no, other side bad. They’re playing you all against each other and that allows the oligarchs to stay in power. How you don’t even realize that is absolutely mind blowing
The fact that you are parroting Russian propaganda for free is mind blowing.
We live in a democracy. No amount of Russian propaganda will change that. Electing Trump will end our democracy and begin a christofascist government where being angry at the US government will get you thrown in a death camp. Be angry at whoever you want. Vote for Biden because it’s a vote for democracy.
ITT: Right wing trolls pretend to be leftists.
De-emphasizing electoralism is a classic left-wing position, not everyone who shuns voting is a right-wing troll. I’m not saying I agree with this but just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean they are right wing.
This.
Taking the stance that voting alone isn’t enough and that we need direct action like the Labor, Civil Rights, and Women’s Suffrage movements to accomplish change isn’t the Right side of the aisle.
The folks who insist that electoralism will save us are misguided.
That said, as someone who votes down ballot anyways I’m going to vote for the farthest left candidate that can win. I can’t find a compelling reason not to vote as a leftist. Then again, I can do it absentee in my state and my polling place doesn’t have huge lines.
Everyone to the left of me is a right wing troll
This should be a lovely comment section… I’ll have to return with some nice warm dinner and a drink later.
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it’s not the responsibility of voters to vote for certain politicians, it’s the responsibility of the politicians to represent people so they vote for them.
if you think joe biden is gonna lose then you gotta force joe biden to take more popular positions (he is literally running right now it’s the time you make up your platform), not yell at people “refusing” to vote for him as if they are just petulant children refusing to eat their veggies and act like the most logical and rational option is locking your vote for joe biden and whoever disagrees just cannot understand the correctness of your reasoning.
(to be clear i’m not american but it’s just ridiculous how many times i have heard this exact song and dance)
You’re living in a fantasy world. The reality is that we have a not great candidate, and a REALLY BAD candidate. The people voting for the REALLY BAD candidate are die hard zealots. We really don’t want the REALLY BAD candidate to win because it would be the end of democracy in the US, so the only ethical option is to vote for the other popular candidate, the not great candidate.
you’re living in the fantasy world since you think philosophically mugging people is actually gonna convince them to vote for “genocide joe”. I don’t want the big bad orange guy to win, so you guys supporting biden need to do better. maybe make him take more popular positions instead of trying to shame people by talking to them like a child not understanding your superior ethics philosophy. just a thought.
Not voting for my candidate is the same as voting for my opposition, but not voting for my opposition is not the same as voting for my candidate.
Yes, this is opportunity cost.
If you were playing tug of war with both of your arms, and one of your arms decided “not to vote”—but like, equally between you and your opponent—then, you know, your one arm just loses.
Definitely nothing wrong with this analogy, 10/10 perfect analogy.
Republicans win with low voter turn. Thus not voting benefits Republicans and not Democrats.
And low turnout is caused by low voter enthusiasm, and low enthusiasm is caused by poor candidates, and poor candidates are made by poor policy.
Whoops, I mean, low enthusiasm is caused by -checks notes- principled leftists? Wait that can’t be right
And low turnout is caused by low voter enthusiasm, and low enthusiasm is caused by poor candidates, and poor candidates are made by poor policy.
I suspect social media influences voters somewhat. Or at least those who seek to suppress voter turn out believe that. I think it’s important to take a stand for Democracy and remind people what is worth fighting for. We can energize people by reminding them that democracy is the most powerful tool we have to create a better future.
Whoops, I mean, low enthusiasm is caused by -checks notes- principled leftists? Wait that can’t be right
There is nothing principled about letting Trump, a fascist, take office and commit ethnic cleansing and green light genocide. In fact, there is nothing particularly leftist about it either. It sounds like accelerationism to me.
I’d love to make a glib analogy like ‘my toast got burnt so I burned my house down and most of the neighbourhood’ but the literal fact that so many people are suffering makes that sort of thing rather tasteless.
I don’t think Biden is “Genocide Joe”. That’s ridiculous hyperbole which doesn’t help. We (the public) don’t know what kind of pressure is being levered in the background to end all the horrors of this situation.
People not voting Dem merely because of difficult historical relationships with Israel are dangerously deluded.
