Investigation by investigative journalism outlet IStories (EN version by OCCRP) shows that Telegram uses a single, FSB-linked company as their infrastructure provider globally.
Telegram’s MTProto protocol also requires a cleartext identifier to be prepended to all client-server messages.
Combined, these two choices by Telegram make it into a surveillance tool.
I am quoted in the IStories story. I also did packet captures, and I dive into the nitty-gritty technical details on my blog.
Packet captures and MTProto deobfuscation library I wrote linked therein so that others can retrace my steps and check my work.
Also, AMA I guess.
No questions from me, just wanna say:
Excellent goddamned work.
Favorited this whole post for future reference.
What would you recommend as an alternative for the general non-technical population?
For the internet messenger functionality that would be Signal.
For other things (channels, mostly), anything that does not pretend to be end-to-end encrypted when it is not. A website with an RSS feed would be one trivial choice for channels that are open to anyone. Public communication like that has no business going through “platforms”.
Matrix
I would most definitely not recommend Matrix for private or sensitive communication, no.
https://soatok.blog/2024/07/31/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-signal-competitor/
https://soatok.blog/2024/08/14/security-issues-in-matrixs-olm-library/
Matrix is fine as IRC replacement, it might also be a decent replacement for Telegram’s channels thingy, sure. But I would not trust my family photos to it. Much less anything actually important.
That’s all FUD. Matrix is as secure as Signal if you - like Signal - rely on a single centralized server. Actually, since you can host it yourself, it would be even more secure since you don’t need to trust Signal.
(I defend infrastructure and perform hacks against cryptograph & protocols for a living)
My question was specifically about “the general non-technical population”. Do you expect my mom to even remotely understand what different servers are and why talking to me is securely encrypted but talking to her friends group isn’t? The point about secure software is that it needs to be secure by default or else, entry level users will manage to accidentally send their stuff in plain text and not even notice.
For nerds like us, I agree that Matrix is probably a good choice. For someone who needed to be told that “the internet” isn’t the blue “e” on their desktop… not so much. I’d rather send carrier pigeons than explain Matrix to my family.
My extended family use Matrix - including my elderly parents. It’s no more difficult to understand than any other service.
If you need to say it…
Regarding Soatok, I am prone to completely ignore impolite individuals. As far as my experience goes, and for most of the general populace, Matrix is fine. And it is likely to continue improving. Compared to Signal and Telegram, who both incentivize crypto"currencies", a.k.a. tech bro multi-level marketing pyramid schemes, enshittification has already begun.
Please feel free to ignore me as well then, because saying that technical analysis by an expert can be outright ignored just because the expert happened to be impolite that one time might make me become somewhat impolite.
Imagine getting dozens of randos in your replies asking about dozens of random chat apps. At some point I am pretty sure you’d also reach a breaking point. Some would call that kind of behaviour a bit impolite, I’d wager.
I’m not saying arguments necessarily become invalid because of impoliteness. But to me it doesn’t convey trustworthiness on first impression, especially when not knowing someone. The world / the Internet already contains so much toxicity, there’s no need for needless additional discord. Especially when encountering something frustrating on the Internet—as opposed to real life—it is trivial to just take a breath, go for a walk, and come back and respond peacefully. The simplest thing for Soatok to have done would be to ignore the message, or use AutoKey to paste a generic neutral response denying the request.
Why do you conflate politeness and trustworthiness? Seems like a weird connection to make.
Is it really that weird? Imagine someone going to a store and the owner starts swearing at them because they asked a question. Would said visitor be more or less likely to trust the owner? I agree that being impolite doesn’t necessarily equate to being ignorant in one’s subject, but I wouldn’t be surprised that on average the most knowledgeable and wise tend to be more polite.
Soatok. At least get the name right.
Which also happens to be the simplest thing you could have done, even simpler as none of the toots you quote were addressed to you. Instead, you are dragging this one random exchange into this thread about something else entirely.
Does it really matter whether or not it is addressed to me? And, the simplest route is not necessarily the most virtuous one. To take an extreme example, if I see someone being bullied I will interfere to stop the bully and console the target. Here, I am simply arguing in favor of less toxicity for it improves credibility.
No questions. Hats off. Thank you for your service, it always seemed like a honeypot to me. Nice to see some evidence other than my gut feeling.
Thank you!
There were reports (claims I suppose) that the fsb were using telegram to organise the stochastic gig job sabotage across Europe.
Joining a neo fash telegram group, pretending to be a rich neo fash who wants to help the cause but not risk themselves and paying people for putting up posters, damaging equipment etc.
Does what has been found here shed any more light on that? I’d guess it would allow them to find these groups to target them very easily? That was the bit I couldn’t quite understand from the original report, if so this all makes more sense.
No no, reports: https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/russia-uses-telegram-to-recruit-spies-and-saboteurs-in-europe/ar-AA1xshqO
Not really/not directly, I would say. What you are describing is FSB using Telegram for recruitment. That does not require network-level observability and surveillance. That’s a different “feature”, so to speak.
It’s not that I don’t believe them, but anything coming from spooks has to be looked at a little sideways.
Thanks for the reply. I just couldn’t figure out how they had enough intelligence to find all these telegram groups, maybe that’s easier for a nation state than I thought.
It’s trivial for a nation state, they have lists of these groups. These groups are promoted in other groups and other channels and other forums and eventually reach somebody who will make a note of them.
Any advice for people that used it in the past? After reading the article, my understanding is that what was sent in “private chat” was in fact encrypted (for the most part) and can be considered secured (to the degree - something is off and, maybe we didn’t find out yet, how the encryption is compromised). But it would wise to treat all other conversations as something that is compromised. Is this a fair summary?
“Secret Chats”, but otherwise spot-on, yes.
I am making a point of clarifying here because Telegram thrives on ambiguity. “Private chat” might mean anything in that system. “Secret Chat” is a specific feature that almost nobody uses but gives Telegram cover to claim they do end-to-end encryption.
Yes, that’s what I would say.
Telegram has access to everything that is not a “Secret Chat”. They are responding to data requests. It’s unclear what they include in these responses. They are also linked to FSB, through the same Vedeneev guy that owned GNM (the infrastructure provider).
This is the part that resonated with me the most as the casual user. The interface is, so confusing that the differences between various forms of chats seems deliberately unclear. And all that’s “useful” is opt-in. And Groups - most used in corporate or project setting, can’t be encrypted at all? That’s… peculiar.
Again, thanks for the eye-opener.