We have bite statistics. Every year, pit bull and pit mixes far outnumber every other breed for human bite attacks, consistently, and always make up far more than half (to the tune of ~70%) of all total bites, by breed. Every single year.
Yet people ignore statistics and are eager to jump on the pibble defense train. “My little angel would never bite anyone!”
Maybe. But numbers don’t lie. Just stop breeding them. It’s cruel to people, and it’s cruel to the dogs themselves, that the breed continues to be perpetuated. Breed-specific behaviors are visceral and strong, whether you have a retriever, a pointer, a herder, or a throat mangler. The breed behavior can be invoked at any time, relatively easily.
It’s not that pits are more likely to bite, it’s that their bite is way more damaging. If a retriever (bred for a “soft mouth”) bites me, I am way less likely to need medical attention than if a pit bites me. Even biting at lower rates than many other breeds, pits come out on top of medical reports because each bite is more damaging.
A friend of my wife and I got a pit bull a couple months ago. She was going on and on about how sweet he is and how he would never hurt anyone. Last week, it mauled her roommate. Nearly took his hand off while he was changing into his work clothes. His career is likely over and she’s still defending the dog.
And even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story - not because it doesn’t add to the discussion, buy because it doesn’t suit their narrative.
I hope the roommate is able to find a good surgeon and get the help he needs, that sounds terrible if it could call for a career change.
And even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story
I think you and I have different ideas about what the word “evidence” means. A story told by a random user about something that happened to their friend’s roommate is not really something I consider or weigh heavily when evaluating things. There could be relevant details omitted from the story, or it could be invented whole cloth, in any case, it isn’t statistically significant.
So you’ve never heard the term “anecdotal evidence” then. I said it adds to the discussion and doesn’t deserve downvoting by pitbull white knights, not that it needs to be booked into evidence for the supreme court case to decide the fate of all pit bulls.
Yes, I have in fact heard that term, which is exactly why I know that anecdotal evidence is not valid.
What does invalid evidence add to the discussion, exactly?
There are people in this thread who are arguing for legislation restricting ownership of pitbulls. We are in the court of public opinion, which may be less formal than the supreme court, but still has the capacity to influence public policy. So it seems reasonable to apply a very basic standard of evidence, above that of stuff that random people claim happen to their friend’s roommate.
even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story - not because it doesn’t add to the discussion, buy because it doesn’t suit their narrative.
Not really commenting on the claims made in this argument, but this is anecdotal evidence. Meaning that someone who claims all pitbulls are sweet and docile because of their personal experience is just as valid of an argument as someone saying all pitbulls are bad because of their personal experience.
I don’t really care about pitbulls one way or the other, but I find it worrying that a lot of the times the debates against the breed follow similar argument structures to those utilized by racist pulling up FBI crime stats about black people.
Personal evidence is anecdotal, I never said it wasn’t? There is nothing wrong with someone sharing a personal story to add to the discussion was my point… Which I thought I made clearly.
Ah yes, ‘being cautious about dog breds bred over a hundred years of more for violent traits is much the same argument as being cautious about black people’ false equivalence again.
Personal evidence is anecdotal, I never said it wasn’t? There is nothing wrong with someone sharing a personal story to add to the discussion was my point… Which I thought I made clearly.
Right, but you were dismaying people who refute your anecdotes “because it doesn’t fit their narrative”, which is a perfectly valid thing to do with anecdotal evidence, as it is itself an attempt to build a narrative.
being cautious about dog breds bred over a hundred years of more for violent traits is much the same argument as being cautious about black people*’ false equivalence again.
Racist would often say the similar things about black people in America. Slavery lasted well over a hundred years and slave owners would often have slaves who were brought up to be prize fighters.
No, I wasn’t. I was pointing out how pathetic it is that people downvote comments that they don’t like because it doesn’t fit their narrative - downvotes are for comments that don’t add to the discussion, and personal stories are absolutely valid.
Am I writing in a coded language that’s hard to decipher?
This is only said by people who’ve never actually taken a class about statistics.
Numbers may not lie, but they also don’t make assertions. People suck at interpreting data and that fact is constantly utilized to mislead people.
I’m not saying this to defend pitbulls, just that bite statistics don’t really tell us anything about innate aggression in dog breeds. Just like FBI statistics don’t tell us about innate criminality in ethnicity.
Those bite statistics don’t make any attempt to rule out misleading variables. It could be that pitt bull bites are reported more often because of the extent of harm they cause. It could be that people who gravitate towards breeds who are thought to be more aggressive are wanting and are training for aggression.
Statistics is hard, and can generally be used to shape opinions on just about anything.
We also don’t really have bite statistics. Almost every citation I see for the data that gets posted over and over again traces back to one of two sources. One was a paper done in the 90s which both asserts that its methodology is inadequate to infer breed related risk and inexplicably combines rottweilers and pitbulls into a single category, a point which never gets carried through into other discussions. The other is that dogsbite site which openly states it is an advocacy site seeking the elimination of pit bulls and frequently gets its “data” from facebook stalking victims of dog bites for pictures of dogs they spent time around recently and then attempting to guess the breed involved from said picture. This is some real clown level shit, especially if you’ve ever read reports about even veterinarians trying to guess the breeds of mixed dogs that are their patients.
I understand the bite statistics but you have to keep in mind how those are reported too.
No one is reporting their neighbor’s chihuahua taking a bite at their boot. Bites from smaller breeds mostly go unreported.
It does give a point as to why pit bulls and other large breeds are dangerous though.
Whether they are more common or not, they certainly are far, far more serious when it happens.
Responsible ownership has always been an issue with pitbulls, as irresponsible people tend to adopt and breed them.
This massively differs per country. Pitbull bites are generally nastier than other bites so they’re overreported. It’s also partially the public image of pitbulls being nasty dogs that gets them reported more often.
Historically the “most dangerous breed” has changed quite a bit. For a while Great Danes were the worst, then it was Dogo Argentinis, Malinois, German Shepherd, Akitas, Labradors, Jack Russells, etc…
In France for example pitbulls only rank 12th for most bite incidents.
Research on it has been mixed, with studies focusing on nature finding that the breed matters surprisingly little when it comes to aggression. It seems more likely that there’s a certain group of owners that handle their dogs irresponsibly, which tend to popularize specific breeds. This seems more likely because places that banned ‘dangerous’ breeds don’t see a decrease in bite attacks; the owners of the dangerous breeds mostly get new dogs, which then just bite people again.
This is because pitbulls are a restricted breed and France. So either people don’t have them, or they get the vet to say it’s some other breed (more often than not)
Yes, and to the original point you used french rankings to attempt to make, the ranking of pitbulls is not because they are treated better or just culturally aren’t regarded as dangerous, it is because they are restricted legally.
No, the point I was making regarding what’s culturally considered dangerous didn’t relate to France directly, that was about the US which went through various phases of panic regarding certain dog breeds. I only brought up France because there different dog breeds have risen to the top of the bite attack statistics. The restriction on pitbulls just let other dog breeds rise to the top. The breed matters less than who owns them. In France, the more irresponsible dog owners gravitate to German Shepherds and Labradors whereas in the US it’s pitbulls.
I don’t mind the French ban on pitbulls, because their attacks can be significantly more damaging than those of other breeds. But it won’t really reduce the number of incidents.
Very few of course. Other dog breeds are known to bite a lot in France. You can still own a pitbull but you require training and you need to muzzle them in public.
Still, there are approximately 35k pitbulls in France. Few compared to the total of course.
In France, German Shepherds cause 18% of dog bite attacks, 16% for Labradors. Generally bigger dogs -> more reported bite attacks, with some exceptions here and there where popular breeds end up higher.
Still, most studies don’t find a direct connection between a dogs nature and their inclination to attack, or a weak one at best. There is of course a link between the breed and the severity of the attack however.
All domestic dog breeds enjoy the same material conditions as other breeds. Pit bulls aren’t living with poverty, scarcity, lack of opportunity, and systemic injustice compared to other dogs.
I don’t think MotoAsh was ever comparing people to dog breeds.
As I understood, they were using that comment as an example of how statistics can provid a skewed view about a certain topic.
To your comment though, pit bulls do tend to see different living conditions to some other breeds. Irresponsible ownership is a real problem for pit bulls.
They are strong and hard to train. I don’t think they should all be put down, but I do agree that not just anyone should raise one.
With humans, there is literally no genetical study that could suggest this. Also, black people have existed for millenniums, and have by nature developed something called empathy
However, dogs are just not as genetically advanced. Them not being totally hostile is something that developed a couple thousand years ago when humans started domesticating them (and that’s something you can look up from non Eugenics based papers.)
So the same way we can make people into monsters, we can also make dogs into those, but way easier. And with Pitbulls, you can do those super easily since they just haven’t evolved because breeders bred them that way
We have bite statistics. Every year, pit bull and pit mixes far outnumber every other breed for human bite attacks, consistently, and always make up far more than half (to the tune of ~70%) of all total bites, by breed. Every single year.
Yet people ignore statistics and are eager to jump on the pibble defense train. “My little angel would never bite anyone!”
Maybe. But numbers don’t lie. Just stop breeding them. It’s cruel to people, and it’s cruel to the dogs themselves, that the breed continues to be perpetuated. Breed-specific behaviors are visceral and strong, whether you have a retriever, a pointer, a herder, or a throat mangler. The breed behavior can be invoked at any time, relatively easily.
It’s not that pits are more likely to bite, it’s that their bite is way more damaging. If a retriever (bred for a “soft mouth”) bites me, I am way less likely to need medical attention than if a pit bites me. Even biting at lower rates than many other breeds, pits come out on top of medical reports because each bite is more damaging.
We do have bite statistics, and the people most qualified to interpret them disagree with you
https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/dog_bite_risk_and_prevention_bgnd.pdf
If you can breed aggression, you can breed against aggression. Which means you can breed pit bulls to be less aggressive.
A friend of my wife and I got a pit bull a couple months ago. She was going on and on about how sweet he is and how he would never hurt anyone. Last week, it mauled her roommate. Nearly took his hand off while he was changing into his work clothes. His career is likely over and she’s still defending the dog.
I think that dog is legally required to be put down no?
I have no idea. I know the city animal control has it now. She is trying to get him released, though.
I guess it depends on where you live yeah…
Lets hope it doesnt get to hurt anyone again.
And even with this personal evidence, you get defenders downvoting the story - not because it doesn’t add to the discussion, buy because it doesn’t suit their narrative.
I hope the roommate is able to find a good surgeon and get the help he needs, that sounds terrible if it could call for a career change.
The word you’re looking for is anecdote
https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/dog_bite_risk_and_prevention_bgnd.pdf
I think you and I have different ideas about what the word “evidence” means. A story told by a random user about something that happened to their friend’s roommate is not really something I consider or weigh heavily when evaluating things. There could be relevant details omitted from the story, or it could be invented whole cloth, in any case, it isn’t statistically significant.
So you’ve never heard the term “anecdotal evidence” then. I said it adds to the discussion and doesn’t deserve downvoting by pitbull white knights, not that it needs to be booked into evidence for the supreme court case to decide the fate of all pit bulls.
As I recall, it is generally brought up to point out how worthless it is in any particular debate.
But, go on…
Yeah Lemmy would be a great place if nobody ever discussed a personal story about how they were affected by a topic being discussed.
Your comment ignores all context of the thread, congrats.
Discussion is fine. Trying to pretend it proves your point is not.
Yes, I have in fact heard that term, which is exactly why I know that anecdotal evidence is not valid.
What does invalid evidence add to the discussion, exactly?
There are people in this thread who are arguing for legislation restricting ownership of pitbulls. We are in the court of public opinion, which may be less formal than the supreme court, but still has the capacity to influence public policy. So it seems reasonable to apply a very basic standard of evidence, above that of stuff that random people claim happen to their friend’s roommate.
Not really commenting on the claims made in this argument, but this is anecdotal evidence. Meaning that someone who claims all pitbulls are sweet and docile because of their personal experience is just as valid of an argument as someone saying all pitbulls are bad because of their personal experience.
I don’t really care about pitbulls one way or the other, but I find it worrying that a lot of the times the debates against the breed follow similar argument structures to those utilized by racist pulling up FBI crime stats about black people.
This is not a thread of statisticians. This is a thread of people sharing experiences about dogs. Expect people stories aka “anecdotal”.
My contributions are not anecdotal
https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/dog_bite_risk_and_prevention_bgnd.pdf
Then also expect people to dismiss that anecdotal evidence as irrelevant
Personal evidence is anecdotal, I never said it wasn’t? There is nothing wrong with someone sharing a personal story to add to the discussion was my point… Which I thought I made clearly.
Ah yes, ‘being cautious about dog breds bred over a hundred years of more for violent traits is much the same argument as being cautious about black people’ false equivalence again.
Right, but you were dismaying people who refute your anecdotes “because it doesn’t fit their narrative”, which is a perfectly valid thing to do with anecdotal evidence, as it is itself an attempt to build a narrative.
Racist would often say the similar things about black people in America. Slavery lasted well over a hundred years and slave owners would often have slaves who were brought up to be prize fighters.
No, I wasn’t. I was pointing out how pathetic it is that people downvote comments that they don’t like because it doesn’t fit their narrative - downvotes are for comments that don’t add to the discussion, and personal stories are absolutely valid.
Am I writing in a coded language that’s hard to decipher?
Lol, what are you the mayor of reddit? You don’t get to decide how people utilize this platform.
This is Lemmy, not Reddit. Lol are you lost?
There’s always a tool that wants to be faux intelligent and inject a racist flavor into every discussion…
There’s always people trying to defend the use of racist dog whistles.
This is only said by people who’ve never actually taken a class about statistics.
Numbers may not lie, but they also don’t make assertions. People suck at interpreting data and that fact is constantly utilized to mislead people.
I’m not saying this to defend pitbulls, just that bite statistics don’t really tell us anything about innate aggression in dog breeds. Just like FBI statistics don’t tell us about innate criminality in ethnicity.
Those bite statistics don’t make any attempt to rule out misleading variables. It could be that pitt bull bites are reported more often because of the extent of harm they cause. It could be that people who gravitate towards breeds who are thought to be more aggressive are wanting and are training for aggression.
Statistics is hard, and can generally be used to shape opinions on just about anything.
We also don’t really have bite statistics. Almost every citation I see for the data that gets posted over and over again traces back to one of two sources. One was a paper done in the 90s which both asserts that its methodology is inadequate to infer breed related risk and inexplicably combines rottweilers and pitbulls into a single category, a point which never gets carried through into other discussions. The other is that dogsbite site which openly states it is an advocacy site seeking the elimination of pit bulls and frequently gets its “data” from facebook stalking victims of dog bites for pictures of dogs they spent time around recently and then attempting to guess the breed involved from said picture. This is some real clown level shit, especially if you’ve ever read reports about even veterinarians trying to guess the breeds of mixed dogs that are their patients.
This. It’s not neccessarily the breed itself. Look at who is likely to own the breed and what they are likely to do with it.
Yeah that’s the point, chihuahuas are assholes too with wrong owners but due its size its not gonna maul children.
I rather give an dumb toddler a spoon than a tec9
Lies, damn lies, and statistics
I understand the bite statistics but you have to keep in mind how those are reported too.
No one is reporting their neighbor’s chihuahua taking a bite at their boot. Bites from smaller breeds mostly go unreported.
It does give a point as to why pit bulls and other large breeds are dangerous though. Whether they are more common or not, they certainly are far, far more serious when it happens.
Responsible ownership has always been an issue with pitbulls, as irresponsible people tend to adopt and breed them.
This massively differs per country. Pitbull bites are generally nastier than other bites so they’re overreported. It’s also partially the public image of pitbulls being nasty dogs that gets them reported more often.
Historically the “most dangerous breed” has changed quite a bit. For a while Great Danes were the worst, then it was Dogo Argentinis, Malinois, German Shepherd, Akitas, Labradors, Jack Russells, etc…
In France for example pitbulls only rank 12th for most bite incidents.
Research on it has been mixed, with studies focusing on nature finding that the breed matters surprisingly little when it comes to aggression. It seems more likely that there’s a certain group of owners that handle their dogs irresponsibly, which tend to popularize specific breeds. This seems more likely because places that banned ‘dangerous’ breeds don’t see a decrease in bite attacks; the owners of the dangerous breeds mostly get new dogs, which then just bite people again.
This is because pitbulls are a restricted breed and France. So either people don’t have them, or they get the vet to say it’s some other breed (more often than not)
Point being that different dog breeds are listed at the top of being most dangerous in France.
You’re still allowed to own a pitbull in France, but you do require a training and need to muzzle them in public (but not at home).
Yes, when pitbull ownership is restricted, pitbulls fall from the number one spot for most dangerous
Obviously. Point being that these owners take different dogs which then rise in the ranking to take the pitbulls place.
Yes, and to the original point you used french rankings to attempt to make, the ranking of pitbulls is not because they are treated better or just culturally aren’t regarded as dangerous, it is because they are restricted legally.
No, the point I was making regarding what’s culturally considered dangerous didn’t relate to France directly, that was about the US which went through various phases of panic regarding certain dog breeds. I only brought up France because there different dog breeds have risen to the top of the bite attack statistics. The restriction on pitbulls just let other dog breeds rise to the top. The breed matters less than who owns them. In France, the more irresponsible dog owners gravitate to German Shepherds and Labradors whereas in the US it’s pitbulls.
I don’t mind the French ban on pitbulls, because their attacks can be significantly more damaging than those of other breeds. But it won’t really reduce the number of incidents.
How many American Pitbulls are there in France?
Very few of course. Other dog breeds are known to bite a lot in France. You can still own a pitbull but you require training and you need to muzzle them in public.
Still, there are approximately 35k pitbulls in France. Few compared to the total of course.
In France, German Shepherds cause 18% of dog bite attacks, 16% for Labradors. Generally bigger dogs -> more reported bite attacks, with some exceptions here and there where popular breeds end up higher.
Still, most studies don’t find a direct connection between a dogs nature and their inclination to attack, or a weak one at best. There is of course a link between the breed and the severity of the attack however.
Removed by mod
Black people aren’t bred for crime.
All domestic dog breeds enjoy the same material conditions as other breeds. Pit bulls aren’t living with poverty, scarcity, lack of opportunity, and systemic injustice compared to other dogs.
I don’t think MotoAsh was ever comparing people to dog breeds.
As I understood, they were using that comment as an example of how statistics can provid a skewed view about a certain topic.
To your comment though, pit bulls do tend to see different living conditions to some other breeds. Irresponsible ownership is a real problem for pit bulls.
They are strong and hard to train. I don’t think they should all be put down, but I do agree that not just anyone should raise one.
People aren’t dogs you cabbage
With humans, there is literally no genetical study that could suggest this. Also, black people have existed for millenniums, and have by nature developed something called empathy
However, dogs are just not as genetically advanced. Them not being totally hostile is something that developed a couple thousand years ago when humans started domesticating them (and that’s something you can look up from non Eugenics based papers.)
So the same way we can make people into monsters, we can also make dogs into those, but way easier. And with Pitbulls, you can do those super easily since they just haven’t evolved because breeders bred them that way