• filister@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    They do have a plan, but it doesn’t include finding a peaceful solution and a path to long standing peace.

    • Risk@feddit.uk
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      1 year ago

      Yup, the Israeli State does not give a single shit about innocent Palestinians. They’re quite happy to continue oppressing them, because when the oppressed ‘suddenly’ become radicalised and fight back it gives the Israeli State an excellent excuse to take more land and displace more Palestinians.

      Israel is showing the world it’s not trying to be an apartheid state, but a genocidal one.

      • scarabic@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Anyone who thinks Israelis differentiate between Palestinians and Hamas terrorists is dreaming. It’s one people against another. If anything the Israelis lump all Palestinians together AND the Arabs in the region.

    • teichflamme@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      So same as the rest of the region? There’s no party with a peaceful plan here, including Palestine.

      • zik@zorg.social
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        1 year ago

        The Gaza strip ceases to exist when it’s taken by force and “settlers” move in so it becomes part of Israel. Millions of Palestinians die in refugee camps.

        • JoeHill@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Taken by force? It was taken by force 56 years ago. Since then the Palestinian population in Gaza has increased about 7-fold.

          And there were already Israeli settlements there. They were dismantled in 2005 and the settlers forcibly removed by Sharon’s government.

          • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Yea, but Sharon was a lot more sane than bibi… it seems like that asshole has done everything in their power to roll those changes back.

            • JoeHill@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Are we talking about the same Sharon that Palestinians hold responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre? And the same Sharon whose visit to Al-Aqsa was rightly or wrongly said to be the proximate cause of the Second Intifada (and which ultimately allowed him to come to power)? The same Sharon who built the wall between the West Bank beyond the Green Line effectively annexing large chunks of land in all but name? That Sharon? Just want to make sure that we’re talking about the same guy

            • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Bibi is almost certainly gone the moment the military operations are over. Something like 90% of Israelis hold him responsible for the attacks and want him out.

              He’ll be around through the unity government while military operations are conducted, but there’s essentially no chance he has any part of what comes after.

              • DanL4@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                If it depends on him resigning it won’t happen. He is in a survivalist state. He doesn’t care about the outcome of the war as long as he remains in power. He doesn’t care what happens. The only thing he is working on in a time of war is his image and blaming figures from decades ago for this situation.

          • dx1@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            It was under Israeli occupation following the Six-Day War until the PNA was given a kind of on-paper authority over it according to the Oslo Accords (which, along with the EUBAM agreements and such, basically gave Israel full siege power over Gaza on all sides). It’s a whopping 141 square miles, I don’t know what pointing to a population increase is supposed to demonstrate.

            The situation before October 7th was that of a clear division between Palestinian population inside the Gaza strip and Israeli population to the north and east. Now:

            Israeli minister without portfolio Gideon Sa’ar told Channel 12 News that Gaza “must be smaller at the end of the war” and that “there should be an area that is classified as a security zone where whoever enters is intercepted.” He added: “We must make the end of our campaign clear to everyone around us. Whoever starts a war against Israel must lose territory.”[260][261]

            In the context of several past instances where Israel has, in order: (a) claimed a territory citing military purposes (b) settlements were built on the military area © claimed the area as its own land because it has Israeli settlements on it - we have absolutely no reason to expect otherwise, particularly given that figures in the Israeli government and media *have been explicitly calling for this:

            https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls

            She noted that Israeli public officials have openly advocated for another Nakba, the term for the events of 1947-1949 when over 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and lands during the hostilities that led to the establishment of the State of Israel. The Naksa, which led to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967, displaced 350,000 Palestinians.

            https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/08/Israeli-Knesset-member-calls-for-second-Nakba-amid-ongoing-conflict-with-Hamas

            Israeli member of Knesset Ariel Kallner on Sunday called for a second ‘Nakba’ to take place in Gaza amid ongoing armed conflict between Hamas and the Israeli army.

            “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear,” Kallner wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter.

        • MxM111@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          So, for execution of this plan they gave to sector Gaza autonomy and removed (forcefully) Jewish settlements from there. Yeah. Totally makes sense.

      • ∟⊔⊤∦∣≶@lemmy.nz
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        1 year ago

        Other commenters have added good answers, basically the strong feeling everywhere is this won’t stop until Hamas is utterly wiped out, and by that time Gaza will be too and it’s inhabitants either destroyed or refugeed out.

  • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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    1 year ago

    FYI - Getting lots of reports on comments in this thread. We are currently reviewing and re-writing the rules in the Sidebar so I’m choosing to not remove any of them YET. That’s not to say it won’t happen LATER.

    I don’t want to put anyone in a position where something would be removed under the old rules, but not the new rules or vice versa.

    Be aware, things are changing. Hopefully in the next 24 hours.

    Until then, Wheaton’s Rule: Don’t be a dick.

    Also, Downvote is not an “I disagree button”, it’s a “this comment doesn’t contribute to the discussion, we are all dumber for having heard it, I award you no points button”.

    • JoeHill@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You do realize that this is likely to become a 3 front war. Lebanon in the north. And Bibi has to cowtow to his settler base in the West Bank.

      • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        And one of those fronts will effectively be with iran. You seriously don’t want to fuck with the resources they have to throw into war.

        • Risk@feddit.uk
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          1 year ago

          I wonder whether Iran can actually spare an outright war. There is clearly a lot of anti-government energy flowing in Iran, and that won’t have been stamped out by their crackdown on it.

          I wonder whether most everyday Iranians would support a war with Israel.

          Granted, it’s not likely Iran gets directly involved - they’ll just drive their Hezbollah prop.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            I wonder whether Iran can actually spare an outright war. There is clearly a lot of anti-government energy flowing in Iran, and that won’t have been stamped out by their crackdown on it.

            I guess it depends on how much the “helping our fellow Muslims” stuff works. I know it would in Egypt at least.

          • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Iran wouldn’t need to radically shift their budget… the revolutionary guard gets buckets of oil money and maintains a constant high state of readiness.

    • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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      1 year ago

      Yeah, Russia’s initial push against all of Ukraine was reportedly about 100-200k soldiers.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Even Israel doesn’t have a blank check to recreate the holocaust in broad daylight. A ground invasion to stamp out terror is cleaner in that sense.

        Note: I could be very, very wrong, but the ruling Israeli far right has been pretty clear about what they wanna do to Gaza.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            There are quotes of soliders, officers and generals in reserves saying “We will do what needs to be done, but we won’t commit the war crimes you’re asking.” Almost verbatim.

            I mean they then proceeded to bomb Palestinians who were supposed to be in safe locations or fleeing along safe routes. Not saying the IDF is fall of war criminals that wanna drink the blood of Palestinian children, but “we won’t commit the war crimes you’re asking” is a little too late.

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                No I’m not talking about that one. Remember a week or so ago when they designated evacuation spots that would be safe from airstrikes then airstriked those locations? Remember when they bombed trucks full of people evacuating south, as ordered, along designated safe routes? According to my understanding, these are blatant war crimes.

              • MonsterHighStan@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                According to this interview with someone from the Human Rights Watch, it is considered a war crime (if I understand it correctly):

                The laws of war require armies to avoid deliberately targeting civilians, and also to avoid attacks that by their nature cannot distinguish between civilians and combatants. In particular, in Gaza, because it’s such a densely populated urban area, when you fire explosive weapons on a massive scale, it’s predictable that civilians will die. It’s predictable that children will die.

  • fbmac@lemmy.fbmac.net
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    1 year ago

    I’d like a single atheist state where Palestine and Israeli have equal rights but religion is strictly outlawed. But I wouldn’t kill people to achieve that, so I think my endgame isn’t gonna happen

    • Spzi@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      But I wouldn’t kill people to achieve that, so I think my endgame isn’t gonna happen

      Yes, since both other sides have extremists which aren’t happy with any compromise. On both sides, they are in the government. On both sides, they are willing to kill for it, even seeing it as their religious duty. So if you’re unwilling to kill and prefer another scenario, you will most definitely not get it and maybe get killed in the process. The region might have reached it’s nash equilibrium in constant war.

    • mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Palestine is a secular state (at least Fatah of the West bank is, remember Hamas is a reaction to Isreal’s oppression). Turns out a theological state is fine if it is the “correct religion”.

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    1 year ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    DUBAI/WASHINGTON, Oct 18 (Reuters) - Israel is vowing to wipe out Hamas in a relentless onslaught on the Gaza Strip but has no obvious endgame in sight, with no clear plan for how to govern the ravaged Palestinian enclave even if it triumphs on the battlefield.

    Codenamed “Operation Swords of Iron”, the military campaign will be unmatched in its ferocity and unlike anything Israel has carried out in Gaza in the past, according to eight regional and Western officials with knowledge of the conflict who declined to be named due to the sensitivity of the matter.

    The immediate Israeli strategy, said three regional officials familiar with discussions between the U.S. and Middle Eastern leaders, is to destroy Gaza’s infrastructure, even at the cost of high civilian casualties, push the enclave’s people towards the Egyptian border and go after Hamas by blowing up the labyrinth of underground tunnels the group has built to conduct its operations.

    Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Biden’s visit would have given him a chance to press Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu to think through issues such as the proportional use of force and the longer-term plans for Gaza before any invasion.

    Two regional military experts told Reuters that Hamas’ armed wing, the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, has mobilised for an invasion, setting up anti-tank mines and booby-trapped explosive devices to ambush troops.

    Hundreds of Palestinians have died in the West Bank since the start of the year in repeated clashes with Israeli soldiers and settlers, and there is widespread concern that the violence might engulf the territory as nearby Gaza burns.


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