Summary
European officials are preparing a multibillion-dollar defense package to bolster regional security and support Ukraine, announced by German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock at the Munich Security Conference.
The package, potentially valued up to 700 billion euros, will fund military training, arms deliveries, and security guarantees amid concerns over Russian aggression and diminishing U.S. contributions to NATO.
The move follows calls for Europe to boost its own defense spending while U.S.-Russian talks, which exclude Ukraine and Europe, on ending the Ukraine conflict continue.
Insane
Thank you, Europe. God, let this be what Ukraine needs.
They also need to cut the US out of any involvement in Ukraine
This is also what Europe needs. Europe needs to seriously increase their domestic military manufacturing capabilities now that the US has proven they can’t be trusted.
If this money is invested in European military industries then they will need to considerably ramp up their production and overall it will strengthen European military power.
This is the best thing about a Donald Trump presidency: sometimes good things happen by accident, and it’s definitely a good thing for the EU to be depending less on the US.
Same thing that happened with Canada. This man is so stupid it’s coming full circle
Don’t forget to save some for the war against America.
The war against America will be fought by poor American SOB’s like myself before it reaches our allies.
We’re all hoping it doesn’t come to that, but the divisive nature of our current political climate is unprecedented… We’re all a day away from never speaking to certain family members again. It’s just fucking nuts what’s going on.
People like to compare us to Nazi Germany, but it’s nothing like that. Well, except Elon Musk. He’s larping as a Nazi pretty openly right now, compete with Seig Heils. That’s part of their plan to divide and conquer. Only I really think it’ll follow our old motto, and we will simply all fall.
It’s the same investment fund. I assume that’s the main reason for it’s existence. Donald Trump and his MAGA baffoons are driving America in the ground faster than a plane during his administration. They need to be ready and they will fight unlike many cowards here.
Numbers are growing in the U.S. but the time needed is also fighting the time that his administration devours media sources and telecommunication systems. Surveillance today is near insurmountable, but not yet
Eh, America would ally itself with Russia anyways. Might as well invest into weakening the Eastern front first.
Would have needed to start saving 50 years ago for that
Perhaps the best time was back then. The next best time is now.
French nuclear program: Fin!
We (EU) should have unleashed our defense industry 3 years ago. Hopefully, the US MIC received the message, their profits are going to sink unless the orange turd starts to provide military aid to fucking Russia.
I am an American and I am willing to endure the pain caused by the rest of the world telling our orange turd to fuck off. Please do it. Please make it so incredibly painful that even those who love Orange Turd will start to smell it and reject it. Make it sooo sooo bitter!
Hey I’m American and I’m all for EU paying for the war in perpetuity and for our mic sinking all the way to the bottom on Mariana trench.
In a way, it’s what I was hoping would happen. The US backs off its own defense spending and stops acting like the world police force. The flip side of that is that Europe and the rest of the world picks up their own defense.
What I had in mind as an end game is that the US would be at a table of equals. That’s not at all what this is.
Not saying it’s not the right thing to do, but I hope America is ready for the loss of jobs that will come with scaling back the military. There will be a lot of associated small businesses and stuff you wouldn’t have thought of that will also get defunded outside of direct military spending.
considering the meeting that just took place in Saudi Arabia, I fear that is entirely possible.
It’s a bit premature to announce this, but yes VonderLeyen has announced the preparation of a defense package of approx. 700 B via this legal fiscal venue. Together with the EU Competitiveness Compass plan at around a minimum of 750 B, they will likely be aimed to reinforce each other. In addition, other parallel plans are being prepared, pending current developments.
added: Context: EU defense is now at 326 B in 2024 (consilium EU). Though Europe also includes UK and other countries ofcourse.
This newly announced extra package is like a minimum extra budget.
I think we should give a nuke to Ukraine. One would be enough to stop all this BS.
Funny enough, when the USSR split up, Ukraine did have nukes, briefly. It was, you guessed it, the US that convinced them to give all their warheads to Russia.
Them not being involved in the peace talks underlines again how indispensable nuclear weapons are, sadly.
The DSA playing hopscotch with whose ally they are underlines how worthless a shared nuclear umbrella can be.
So a grim lesson for Ukraine, Europe, Taiwan and pretty much any country with any border tensions, or anything another aspiring imperialist might find desireable: Get nukes, own them yourselfes, or risk being thrown aside or being steamrolled. Trump undoing decades of existential anti-proliferation work in mere days.
I keep hoping the Palestinians will get their hands on one for the same reason.
The limited military capabilities of Palestinians has restrained Israel’s actions.
How should Palestinians use that nuke?
The limited military capabilities of Palestinians has restrained Israel’s actions.
If you say so.
How should Palestinians use that nuke?
They shouldn’t use it, per se.
Just make threats with it, like most countries do. Having a nuke is a deterrent.
I don’t think Israel would care. Or the USA
One won’t be enough. If they use it, Russia will at least hit the whole frontline with tactical nukes, maybe wipe out a city or two. That means Ukraine can’t use it, making it as valuable as a paperweight. For credible nuclear deterrence a country needs a few dozen nuclear weapons and more than one delivery method.
Noone who has nukes can use them, but that’s not the point. Just the threat is enough. One nuke with enough juice to get it to Moscow would be enough. I’m pretty sure if any country ever used a nuke, the whole world would explode.
Don’t sigh before any papers are signed, but…
…while they may get stuck for a while passing a measure of this volume (or someone will need to lure Orban out of the room while others push buttons) - the volume is doable.
For comparison, the NextGenerationEU budget allocation (spent in a dozen ways) to help countries recover from COVID damage) was worth 2 trillion euros, and it was possible to pass.
The actual part? Probably multipronged:
- supercharging EU and Ukrainian arms industries, especially ones that can be expanded fast (drones)
- reducing formalities that need to be followed
- buying the weapons some members have in reserve for a Russian attack (because some do)
- buying the weapons Turkey and Greece have in reserve for each other
- subsequently, raking the global market (including the US) for weapons that come loose for money
- allowing Ukraine to pay really attractive salaries to its own soldiers and foreign soldiers
P.S. And jokingly - buying all the optical fiber available in South-East Asia.
Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need! Kick out Russia once and for all!
Finally Ukraine is getting the help they need!
This might actually be the silver lining of it all.
There has been an uncomfortable disparity between words of support and actual support. I heard many times that the ultimate goal the Pentagon wants to achieve is Russia not losing the war. Out of (comprehensible) fear a falling dictator might throw a last Tantrum235. Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets? And the (for some Ukrainians literally) gut-tearing discussions at each and every step, wether this is Putins red line, or that is Putins red line, wether this or that might escalate the war, all while Putin escalates the war.
Now that the DSA have kissed themselves goodbye, Europe seems to finally realize what’s at stake and oops they can do something about it. So there is hope Germany might get it’s fat ass off the track. There is even talk about Germany taking a leadership role, though given the context, this must be dark humour. Gotta love that.
Fingers crossed Europe unites in action and Ukraine is getting the help they need! Doing otherwise would send a strong signal to the new Imperialists in east and west that you can pick and chew at our borders, be it the Baltics or Greenland.
Germany is the 2nd / 3rd largest contributor with about €15 billion. And you bring up 5000 helmets? That’s just pathetic and false.
Also, make sure to use per capita numbers.
Germany has also been firmly sitting on the brakes from the start. Remember 5000 helmets?
Remember how it took like two days to overturn 70 years of precedence of “no weapons delivery into crisis regions”? Without us actually having a debate about it because there was an overwhelming majority for it from the get-go? Those 5000 helmets were part of the initial “find what we have and what we can legally send” order, which then arrived in Ukraine in the same shipment as the first actual weapons.
The, say, tank situation is ambiguous, I don’t have enough insider information to actually make a judgement. Either Germany said “only if the US says it’s ok” or Germany said “let’s put some political pressure on the US to get into the game, to commit”. Ultimately, Germany shipped everything but Taurus. I think we should – and much of the parliament agrees. Majority, actually, but not the governing majority so as is tradition parties voted against their own actual position. I guess that it’s being held back so something is being held back so that certain peacenik SPD parliamentarians can be assuaged.
So there is hope Germany might get it’s fat ass off the track.
FDP is probably out and with that ideological (instead of merely populist) sentiment against spending money, Black-Green looks quite likely and in case anyone is confused yes the Greens are hawkish AF about this one. The discussions around Yugoslavia turned them from singing kumba ya into liberal interventionists and I haven’t heard “olive-green” used as an insult in quite a while.
Remember how it took like two days to overturn 70 years of precedence of “no weapons delivery into crisis regions”?
Oh, thanks. Yeah, now I remember making that jump, too, although it took me more than two days. Wild times.
Hofreiter (Greens) put it quite well … something like … not our ideals have changed, but the world has changed, brutally so.
I think you did well in dialing back my comment and adding more context, although I still think there was truth in it.
Most of that money will likely go into expanding the defense industrial base and infrastructure. That includes not just buildings but training and hiring engineers and technicians.
Lots of essential things in NATO are run by USA. Airlift capability is a big example. Luckily Ukraine has some serious capability there and cooperation has been done for a long time already. Building an independent intelligence infrastructure, satellites, and so on is a major task as well. Command organization is built around the US and will need to be built as well. Training of Air Force pilots also happens in the US for most European militaries. That means building air bases, infrastructure, hiring and training additional staff, etc. Nuclear weapons and delivery systems are another big concern.
Europe has capabilities in all of this already, but it’s dwarfed by the US.
Europe will likely have to spend double the rumored 700 billion to achieve something credible.
I know a way to increase the support even more than that:
Donate to u24.gov.ua
Removed by mod
ironic that you can be so anti-capitalist that you turn fascist like this.
That dude posts so much so frequently, it’s extremely fishy
Lemmy feels increasingly filled with AI bots pushing pro-Russian anti EU narratives.
I noticed this too in the last few days and weeks. Fucking russian cunts.
Some of it is definitely bots, but don’t discount the human factor either. Russia had an entire branch of the military dedicated to trolling the Internet at least as far back as 2015. Something tells me that hasn’t gotten smaller since then. No doubt they work in tandem with bots as well, constantly editing their output, maybe even making posts from the same accounts.
The fediverse may be small compared to the behemoths, but I don’t think we’re so small as to be ignored.
And there will be a big bunch of people that swallowed all that troll farm shit whole and is now out there, parroting the same shit and inventing their own new shit, completely willfully, without compensation. We see this with the US and MAGA. Some people just… I don’t even know what words to use here. Some people just have such hate and bitterness inside them, and are gullible enough to go with some absolute bonkers shite and run with it.
That dude posts so much so frequently, it’s extremely fishy.
Totally, and always the same long not engaging statements. I’d even prefer random adverts at this point, which I normally block.
Also interesting that they seem to not reply to any thing that might require a real discussion.
Well, banned from here now.
Intellectual honesty tends not to be a primary motivator itself.
Yeah! Down with democracy! Bring back feudalism!
Pretty sure feudal peasants were living happier than us now.
They weren’t.
Mostly.
It’s laughable that you’d make such a statement.
The half that didn’t die as kids, you mean?
Anyone downvoting should pack his bags and join the front because ukraine is running out of men
I think democracy is a good thing, therefore I should join the Ukrainian military?
If you think democracy is a good thing you should realize that there’s none anymore and ukraine is under martial law.
Go on. Tell me about how there’s nothing democratic about Switzerland or Iceland.
Switzerland is a known tax heaven that laundry money worldwide including these of russians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Leaks
Iceland is an island with less than 300k people
Neither thing has anything to do with democracy. You claimed there are no more democracies. Please explain how Switzerland and Iceland are not democracies.
Flying squid you are picking up two irrelevant countries as switzerland and iceland because you know all the others to be corrupted as fuck. Democracy is being eroded worldwide in the same way: government are getting unlimited power and control over people and a bunch of rulers own all mass media.
Actually, no. Ukraine has quite a couple of brigades ready to go, waiting for materiel to use. Because unlike Russia, Ukraine isn’t hurling donkeys and men with nothing but Kalashnikovs at the front.
Personally I’d go if they just let me. I’m a reserve sergeant with strong will to actually do something, knowing full well I will perish there, and cry for mommy in a ditch, or something else entirely, as of yet unimaginable to me.
Defense is something I accept and will always help with if I just can, if the cause is right. Other kinds of war or violence? I’d rather go to jail than participate. In defense of gender minorities, people with mental health issues struggling as it is, when we now have great support networks and financial help guaranteeing housing, food, electricity, everything necessary, I would face the horrifying prospect of unimaginable pain and fear, desperation, so that those that do not wish to, or can’t, do not have to.
I have strength and vitality some do not have. And if the only thing standing between the peaceful, at least good enough life they (we!) now have, is the sacrifice of those just selfless enough to face horrors, I’d feel bad letting them do it without me, if and when I am capable to help.
But this is only as long as the thing we’d defend is worth defending. Our current state definitely is. I’m openly pan-sexual enby, and nobody looks at me twice. I get to work, study, participate in society just like most everyone do. If that is in danger, I won’t sit down and wait for them to come for me and my kin.
But I also don’t think anyone else should be forced to do that, unless they really do want to and understand the horrors of what it will be.
I have the benefit of military training and familiarity with guns and warfare in general (in theoretical level, though, which is still better than nothing), so I wouldn’t be able to forgive myself if I didn’t put those to use in defense of my fellow minorities often persecuted elsewhere.
But this is only as long as the thing we’d defend is worth defending.
What are you defending that is so precious to throw your live over like that? The orange man country and its mega corps oligarchs?
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
Definitely not. The orange man and the US in general is equal in my eyes to Russia. A bad, backwards place I would fight if it tried to thrust its diseased member into my current life and surroundings.
Instead, I’d give a lot for what I have now: The relative safety and social progress, as well as the socialist elements such as our guaranteed welfare for everyone without gotchas or requirements, the general atmosphere of acceptance towards sexual and gender minorities etc.
A lot of reasons to “throw my life away”. The life wouldn’t be worth much if I couldn’t be myself, if I couldn’t survive and thrive even when unable to work or function. So I’d rather go fighting for those as opposed to bending over to get fucked either way.
Oh, the irony. You’re here, cheerleading for conscription from the comfort of your keyboard, while accusing others of armchair opinions. If Ukraine’s running out of men, maybe it’s time to question why this proxy war keeps demanding human sacrifices instead of solutions.
Blind allegiance to this endless cycle of funding and fighting doesn’t make you noble—it makes you complicit. Pack your own bags if you’re so invested, but don’t expect others to march for a game they didn’t sign up to play.
say that to the people who downvoted you buddy, i’m not team stupid
lol whyyy Ukraine’s cooked why are we shoving more public funds up the US’ ass? Genuinely what are they hoping to accomplish?
found another fascist.
The reality that Ukraine is cooked for the next several decades by any sensible metric is independent of any ideology, it’s just fact. It’s over, it’s done, Russia will get what they want and the US will get a neocolony, aka what they want.
The only thing I don’t get is why we still finance lockheed martin? jk I think I have an idea for why UVDL is still hellbent on getting as much as possible out of public coffers and into the hands of foreign private investors.
Well, Ukraine quite recently rejected Trump’s neocolonial proposal.
Which, for some reason, Biden has forgotten to even send …so maybe part of the US doesn’t really want that kind of stuff. ¹
…and well, the title describes European countries rushing to turn the page on Trump - assemble about three (maybe four) times the resources the US has thrown in, worth about six or seven Russian annual defense budgets. It seems a move that’s not only intended to help Ukraine repel Russia, but end defense dependence on the US, on the premise that the partner no longer is reliable.
¹ IMHO, it’s just that the US has so much power invested in one damn person and an electoral system that prevents diversity. Which is tragic. :(
It seems a move that’s not only intended to help Ukraine repel Russia, but end defense dependence on the US, on the premise that the partner no longer is reliable.
Which is a good thing IMO. From this side of the large pond the USA looks more and more like a bully on par with Russia and China.
East of UA is fucked for decades but Russia is fucked too. Both countries burnt through quite a lot of their arsenal from Soviet times and struggle to keep their troops supplied. UA has it easier because the European countries help with weapons, munitions and other equipment.
Unfortunately Russia can sustain the current attrition rate by another 5-10 years before the situation becomes truly unbearable for them. My fear is that by then the UA might have collapsed.
The best case scenario is that Putin dies shortly and his successor ends this stupid war.
Pretty sure US weapons sales in EU countriea are coming to a predictable end…
all the more baffling why we would buy more so close to the end, no?
Production isn’t were it’s supposed to be because there hasn’t yet been enough time to build more production capacity hardware (factories, specialist workers, logistical systems etc…). It’s unfortunate right now, the US has already all that. But it’s the big push before the end of the line for any US made weapon systems in the EU. Too dangerous to have an Ally of Russia as a supplier who can cut you out of the usage of what he sold you at the most critical time.
because there hasn’t yet been enough time to build more production capacity hardware
Oh there has, but companies didn’t invest because noone was making large enough orders to justify that investment. Push come to shove Austria can build more rotary forges in a week than Russia can produce tank barrels in those two forges they have.
we’re pinched for energy and dependent on the US for it unless we diversify our imports (russia) or produce our own (nuclear). Particularly for the production of steel.
Whats even harder to fix is the brain-drain with most academics leaving for US or China where the major research is happening
we’re pinched for energy and dependent on the US for it unless we diversify our imports (russia) or produce our own (nuclear)
From what I heard, the EU is replacing Russian energy dependency with imports from the US and Norway, and I’m sure there would be other options if we cut off the US as well. Also, plenty of European countries have nuclear plants, and some are building more (UK, for one at least) as well as increasing renewable production.
Whats even harder to fix is the brain-drain with most academics leaving for US
From what I’ve been hearing, academia in the US is kinda fucked - probably even more now with
RepublicansNazis in charge - so I’d need a source for that. In fact, starting a few months to a year ago, YouTube keeps recommending me videos of (American) people talking about why they left academia.
Kyiv in three days!
They’ve actually been pretty much tied with the Russians for the last year, I’d say. Russia’s bigger, but also taking way more losses, so in the end the front line has stayed put.
Imagine spending 700 billions in useful things and not to fight a proxy war against russia.
Yeah, imagine ignoring the aggressor next to you in order to by nice things.
It’s not just nice things, but useful ones.
There are people living in poverty that could be brought out of it with this money. Instead it’s being used to kill each other.
And if Putin could calm the fuck down then we could.
Putin leverage military spending the same way: “if the west calm the fuck down we could”
USA, Russia, China, Europe they are all corrupted as fuck ruled by maniacs who seek war and power.
All of Europe? All EU leaders? Just the EU president, who has a mostly ceremonial role?
I’m being nitpicky, no state is anyone’s friend and no superpower (or wannabe) comes even half as close as a state to being on your side.
Ensured sovereignty sounds pretty useful to me.
We are all humans living in the same planet countries are invisible lines draw on a map
Then you’d be fine living in a world run by Kim Jong Un, right? Countries are invisible lines.
Or under trump, as clearly its all the same right?
The world run by kim jong un is a military dictatorship that spend the equivalent of european billions in war. Unlike you i don’t want any of this shit, i would like public billions to be spend on useful things and not to fight proxy wars against made up enemies.
You’re changing the subject. I was talking about how sovereignty is useful.
And I’d say it’s pretty fucking useful when a dictator is threatening to take over where you live.
And we want to keep living, so we need to be prepared.
I am sure the russian/US/whoever will really like all those useful things. Those people in poverty will really do well under the aggressors rule. After all they will be all given a job (disposable soldier, baby machine, etc.) and when they die their family might even get a lada.
True: they could get decent income in a weapons factory.
Or they could get decent income in a factory building almost anything else.
Whoever spend billions in war instead useful things is the aggressor
Is your point that Russia should be allowed to steam roll through Ukraine? Europe shouldn’t help their allies and neighbors defend themselves? Standing up to bullies is worse than being a bully?
Genuinely curious if you even have a point to make at all. I hope I’m just interpreting you wrong.
Nobody should help authoritarian governments and nobody should sell weapons to them. Ukranian people and the ukranian government are two different things, same goes for every country.
Standing up to bullies is worse than being a bully?
Nobody is standing up to shit, russians are chilling in saudi arabia docked next to americans yachts bought with money from the military industry.
Stand up against useless wars and military spending
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-preparedness-the-road-to-universal-slaughter
Is this a joke? Sorry so much time living in clown world has made it hard to tell.
I already have him flagged as a troll, so you can just ignore him.
In a world where everyone is brainwashed by state propaganda advocating for peace and military spending cut is considered a joke.
So since adjusting by PPP Russia has spent over a trillion in USD on the war, that makes Russia the aggressor?
You have to spend money on weapons in order to have the privilege of sitting peacefully with those weapons rather than dying on your enemies.
Peace is not achieved by spending trillions in war. Look around yourself what’s happening there’s no peace.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
This phrase didn’t age well in the past 2000 years
It absolutely did.
So, the US and Russia are the aggressors, so, they need to be repelled, right?
Which costs money.
If they don’t spend 700 billion on this, the “proxy” war with Russia (that is currently “cheap” for most of Europe to support), will cost them far, far, far, far more than 700 billion in a few short years/months.
This is why you support proxy wars when they’re in your interest.
It’s like outsourcing a future war to a country that won’t touch your shores.
Ukraine is getting fucked up by Russia right now. Mines, bombs, guns, battle, towns destroyed, infrastructure disruptions, etc.
You want that contained in Ukraine as much as possible. The second they lose, it will spill out into all of Europe and will be far more expensive and too late to contain.
And this is if we only strictly try and think about this fiscally. The human, social and moral side only expands from this, and are much more important, too.
Could do that if tanks weren’t rolling across the border, and missiles weren’t raining down. Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia. Could really simplify life by abandoning European identity, self-respect and agency to become a pawn to the East instead of looking to the West for help.
Too bad they are top strong a people for that.
Could avoid the whole thing by just kneeling and kissing the ring, capitulating to economic and cultural domination by a foreign mafia.
You are already doing that, bend the knee and kiss orange man and his oligarch boots.
Hah, strong reply. 👍
The sentiment is understandable and in a naive sense I agree, but the paradox of tolerance applies here, and it’s not so straight forward.
Sometimes you just have to punch a nazi in order to stop them getting too comfortable and getting bold. Well, right now the equivalent of the nazis here are, and have been, emboldened for over a decade, and it’s unfortunately going to take a lot of punches to stop them swallowing everyone whole and imposing even worse environments and even more poverty for all.
Here’s the paradox of tolerance to you: we are ruled by maniacs corrupted by money and power who seek war and chaos as a leverage to get more wealth and fuel their insanity. We either stop them and oppose their military spending or we are all ending up in a meat grinder fighting one against the other.
Yeah, well, say we successfully block any further military spending here in the eu.
Is Russia going to stop their spending? USA?
No?
Then what will we do when they come for us next?
This wouldn’t be a factor if our nations were almost alike and no practical changes would occur should they conquer majority of Europe, but most of Europe is comparatively in another sphere in terms of progressiveness and social stuff. Compared both to USA and Russia.
Would the 700bn used, right now, in some better causes be worth it, if in somewhat near future we’ll have our minorities in concentration camps, killed or expelled? Our social systems torn to shreds, poverty and income differences rising? The authoritarian/oligarch rule we’d get then would spend that 700bn in many multiples in warfare, but also similar amounts extra for police and other oppressive powers to silence any and all opposition.
I’m just saying there are things worth defending, such as lgbtq+ rights, (comparatively much more progressive and universal) social equality and you know, the basics such as low levels of impoverishment, guaranteed housing for everyone, quality and unhindered education etc etc.
Then what will we do when they come for us next?
Even if you assume the whole world is trying to invade you (which is not true) you can defend yourself even without a government spending billions on war designed to murder other people.
Would the 700bn used, right now, in some better causes be worth it, if in somewhat near future we’ll have our minorities in concentration camps, killed or expelled? Our social systems torn to shreds, poverty and income differences rising? The authoritarian/oligarch rule we’d get then would spend that 700bn in many multiples in warfare, but also similar amounts extra for police and other oppressive powers to silence any and all opposition.
You are describing the scenario you don’t want to happen. Our social system is torn to shred already, poverty and income differences are rising and billions are going to oppressive powers such as the military
Russia literally said they want to take an entire list of places where 100M people live and make them Russia. The US said it intended to take CA and Greenland.
Anyone willing to stand up to defend these places would end up in a war. If everyone abandons their neighbors then there is absolutely no reason for Russia, the US, and China to divide up the world between them. These are people with their own plans, nations, cultures who don’t want to choose whose boot to live under. The only way to do this is to be able to fight.
The thing is, there are no ideal options here. While the 700bn goes to violence, at least in my country I know for a fact it goes to defense, since we very explicitly have no general armed forces, only defense forces. The same is not true for Russia or the US.
But I suppose you are right in that it depends on the specific country. I’m from a progressive social democracy, the world’s happiest people multiple years in row according to some studies, so it’s easy for me to say I’d rather choose the current situation over getting Russia or US conditions here… but maybe the same is not true for all European countries. There are many, after all, and in case of Hungary, for example, I would probably feel the same as you. There wouldn’t be much of a difference, just the flavor of who gets to oppress you and your people.
But there is no choice here, in my country, in which the current social situation remains as good as it is here, and in which we also do not spend any money on defense, local as well as Europe at large.
If the choice is between oppressive leadership, I’d much rather choose my current flavor. People can be who they are here, there’s no militia silencing our voices, and while things could be better in a million different ways, they also could be so much worse, as demonstrated by the two dickswingers, Russia and USA.
In an ideal world we would not spend on violence. I agree with that. It’s a waste. It leads to people dying, especially innocents. But it’s not an ideal world. And until it is, the choice has to be between different flavors of bad, I suppose, and personally I would 100% always choose the flavor in which I feel safe, happy and supported as a gender identity and sexual minority with mental health problems and adhd. And I would hope that most would do the same.
Because the alternative is just going to be fatal for me, at least, and a lot of people like me.
Edit: And yeah, you can pick out my points and their details in many ways, but the fact that the alternative can be picked out in so many more ways, remains. It’s all relative. I don’t see it as a good option to sacrifice good, just because it is not perfect, and get an outright horrible outcome. I’d much rather just try and help things remain at least good…
Edit2: Also, to address the “everybody wants to invade you” part: The US has declared it will start expansion and assimilate parts of other sovereign countries. One of those being part of Europe… An European country is currently deep in a defense war against a nation that has also declared that letting my country gain independence was a mistake and that is listed in multiple writings of prominent leadership members as one of the next countries that will be part of Russia “again”. So I don’t think everyone wants to invade us, not by a long shot. But there are countries that have been very explicit in their want, or even need, to fucking invade us and start enrussificating us.
The fact that you aren’t even considering these things, things that are well known and plainly and openly broadcast by these dickswingers, in some cases for many decades now, just tells me that you fail to understand what it actually is like being an openly stated target of assimilation. You make it a joke, as if nobody ever wants to conquer anyone, but it’s just fucking fantasy to think that. Right now, the same country that has stated my country “is in fact” part of their country, is, in real time, fighting a war of assimilation not too far from our borders… I get that this might not be close to you, you may live somewhere far away and don’t know this, but it hits a bit different when you are actually here. I can’t even imagine what it is like for Ukraine…
I do hope you could also try and expand your point of view and gain some perspective. The world is fairly shit in terms of things like this. Pretending otherwise won’t change that. The moment you blink, the nazis and oligarchs just do what they already have told you, over and over, what they will do. And next thing you know, you are being raped in a prison for being “a deviant” and your murder is then hidden away as your peers continue to face this reality.
Putin always had designs to re-create the Russian empire, with Europe included, and the US as a puppet state.
We either stop them and oppose their military spending
You notice that’s a luxury exclusive to one side in that conflict? This freedom of speech, even forming a vocal political opposition. There have been people trying to do exactly that in Russia, but they all have died, vanished or gone silent.
If the dictatorship takes over (for example, due to a lack of resistance), you lose these privileges and are then sent to the grinder anyways.
Julian Assange and Chelsea Manning got persecuted for exposing war crimes. The west is as much corrupted as russia, just take a look at the news reporting on the latest US oligarch
The west is as much corrupted as russia
You did not check. Go and find some sources to confirm your claim.
- I also suggest counting how many opposition leaders sit in prison or have been recently killed in the west, preferably per capita (for about a billion people). Then I suggest comparing that to Russian figures (for 140 million people).
- After that, I suggest checking out how longer the ruling politicians have been ruling.
I claim that the west is considerably less corrupt than Russia. I offer a source too (below). I also claim that the west is an incredibly safe place to be in opposition, and that power changes hands frequently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
“Both sides bad” is running like a disease among some leftist circles. Mostly Western leftists who have never seen Russia up close. It’s a nice excuse to do nothing.
Truly a shame, but does not lead to your conclusion. If you cannot get the irony about you publicly complaining that you cannot publicly complain much like in Russia, then I’m afraid I cannot help you further.
Says the pro russian
Imagine not being a complete moron. I know that’s impossible for you.
