Former President Donald Trump says Ukraine should have made concessions to Russian President Vladimir Putin instead of going to war with its invading neighbor.
You understand that stopping fighting would in no way benefit the average Ukrainian and I think most people would agree your nation no longer existing would be the least beneficial thing for Ukraine.
I’m genuinely curious: we all want the way to stop but I really do want to know what’s your solution?
You understand that stopping fighting would in no way benefit the average Ukrainian
No, I do not “understand” this at all. The average Ukrainian would certainly be better off of the fighting stopped.
and I think most people would agree your nation no longer existing would be the least beneficial thing for Ukraine.
First off, Ukraine “no longer existing” isn’t really on the table. Secondly, while a state no longer existing is obviously a bad outcome from the perspective of the state, whether it’s good or bad for the average person, and to what degree, depends on the state and what the alternative is.
I’m not aware of very much that the Ukrainian state was doing to help it’s people before the war, or what rights people living in the disputed territories would enjoy as part of Ukraine as opposed to if they were part of Russia, or vice versa. So I see very little case for supporting either side in the war, from the perspective of class interests as distinct from state interests.
I’m genuinely curious: we all want the way to stop but I really do want to know what’s your solution?
Negotiate. Diplomatic approaches have been completely written off from start to finish, with Ukraine insisting on a complete withdrawal from all disputed territory as a precondition for talks, even from Crimea, which Russia already had before the war. Some territorial concessions are worth it to stop the meat grinder, because the amount of lives that would have to be sacrificed to reclaim all the territory are not worth the benefit.
That user is an accelerationist who wants Donald to drive the US into the ground so China can gain more global influence. They’re deliberately unwilling to confront facts, as you can see by the suggestion of Ukraine negotiating with country notorious for failing to honor its treaties.
The complete post-truth doublethink the liberals are doing these days is shocking. There is no difference between MAGA Trump supporters and the vast majority of liberals these days. I don’t think they are capable to be truthful any more.
It really shows what happens when the mainstream media is owned by oligarchs and use the right propaganda to hone in on the “emotional truths” of a group. For them it’s about justice and and evil and a good. US supporting Israel commit genocide is evil. US supporting Ukraine become demcoratic is good. Russia attacking because of NATO expansion is evil.
So everything that doesn’t fit with this narrative, that they are the good guys, is dismissed or rationalized. Easy when it just so happens if the arguments are made by their evil enemies. Historical facts simply don’t matter.
That’s also true, but I was talking more about the .world culture where you can just casually lie and make up whatever you like about the out group and everyone just goes along with it, with zero sources needed. It’s very much an echo chamber where nobody cares about evidence or truth, not just in terms of politics and world affairs, but also with people and conversations. You can go full on Yeonmi Park with it so long as you’re in the in-group talking about the out-group. I think it’s brought over from toxic Reddit culture.
Well that is part of the defense mechanism. There really are trolls, bots, agitprop etc. So we now anyone who is using an argument that Trump or Putin ever made, must be an enemy (genetic fallacy). And is hence is “fair game” to attack and lie about to protect the narrative. Being called a bot is like the ultimate dehumanization.
I don’t think it’s reddit culture, it’s bigger than that. People are just badly informed and the disinformation is total. Journalists who even slightly deviate are fired all over the world.
Maybe there is so much noise now that people rely more and more on mainstream media that are completely captured now.
Y’all just casually lie about people constantly, all the time and none of you ever see anything wrong with it whatsoever. You’re backing up someone who is blatantly lying, and who constantly lies about my positions. Back up their claims then, if you claim they’re not a liar, if you claim that “it doesn’t seem like they’re wrong.” Show me that you don’t just blindly accept claims with zero evidence. Show me that you’re not a liar just like they are.
They’re deliberately unwilling to confront facts, as you can see by the suggestion of Ukraine negotiating with country notorious for failing to honor its treaties.
That is accurate, their opinion of you isn’t something I can verify but calling for Ukraine to surrender is actually accelerationist behavior so…
If I were an accelerationist, I would want the US to overextend into as many conflicts as possible, and I would want those conflicts to last as long as possible, in order to weaken it. I don’t, because I’m not, because that’s a lie.
You understand that stopping fighting would in no way benefit the average Ukrainian and I think most people would agree your nation no longer existing would be the least beneficial thing for Ukraine.
I’m genuinely curious: we all want the way to stop but I really do want to know what’s your solution?
No, I do not “understand” this at all. The average Ukrainian would certainly be better off of the fighting stopped.
First off, Ukraine “no longer existing” isn’t really on the table. Secondly, while a state no longer existing is obviously a bad outcome from the perspective of the state, whether it’s good or bad for the average person, and to what degree, depends on the state and what the alternative is.
I’m not aware of very much that the Ukrainian state was doing to help it’s people before the war, or what rights people living in the disputed territories would enjoy as part of Ukraine as opposed to if they were part of Russia, or vice versa. So I see very little case for supporting either side in the war, from the perspective of class interests as distinct from state interests.
Negotiate. Diplomatic approaches have been completely written off from start to finish, with Ukraine insisting on a complete withdrawal from all disputed territory as a precondition for talks, even from Crimea, which Russia already had before the war. Some territorial concessions are worth it to stop the meat grinder, because the amount of lives that would have to be sacrificed to reclaim all the territory are not worth the benefit.
How? Russia won’t leave and they aren’t tasting anyone well, kidnapping kids during the war kinda tells you everything you need to know.
It 100% is, give in this time and they’ll do it again just like last time.
So you’re ignorant but insist your opinion is correct?
They’ve tried, Russia says give up territory or die, no middle ground. This is very well documented.
That user is an accelerationist who wants Donald to drive the US into the ground so China can gain more global influence. They’re deliberately unwilling to confront facts, as you can see by the suggestion of Ukraine negotiating with country notorious for failing to honor its treaties.
Every word you speak is a lie. Are you even capable of being truthful?
The complete post-truth doublethink the liberals are doing these days is shocking. There is no difference between MAGA Trump supporters and the vast majority of liberals these days. I don’t think they are capable to be truthful any more.
It really shows what happens when the mainstream media is owned by oligarchs and use the right propaganda to hone in on the “emotional truths” of a group. For them it’s about justice and and evil and a good. US supporting Israel commit genocide is evil. US supporting Ukraine become demcoratic is good. Russia attacking because of NATO expansion is evil.
So everything that doesn’t fit with this narrative, that they are the good guys, is dismissed or rationalized. Easy when it just so happens if the arguments are made by their evil enemies. Historical facts simply don’t matter.
That’s also true, but I was talking more about the .world culture where you can just casually lie and make up whatever you like about the out group and everyone just goes along with it, with zero sources needed. It’s very much an echo chamber where nobody cares about evidence or truth, not just in terms of politics and world affairs, but also with people and conversations. You can go full on Yeonmi Park with it so long as you’re in the in-group talking about the out-group. I think it’s brought over from toxic Reddit culture.
Well that is part of the defense mechanism. There really are trolls, bots, agitprop etc. So we now anyone who is using an argument that Trump or Putin ever made, must be an enemy (genetic fallacy). And is hence is “fair game” to attack and lie about to protect the narrative. Being called a bot is like the ultimate dehumanization.
I don’t think it’s reddit culture, it’s bigger than that. People are just badly informed and the disinformation is total. Journalists who even slightly deviate are fired all over the world.
Maybe there is so much noise now that people rely more and more on mainstream media that are completely captured now.
I mean judging by what I’ve seen it doesn’t seem like they’re wrong.
Your stance is at best naively idealistic or at worst incredibly ill informed, stupid and legitimately dangerous.
Source?
Source?
Y’all just casually lie about people constantly, all the time and none of you ever see anything wrong with it whatsoever. You’re backing up someone who is blatantly lying, and who constantly lies about my positions. Back up their claims then, if you claim they’re not a liar, if you claim that “it doesn’t seem like they’re wrong.” Show me that you don’t just blindly accept claims with zero evidence. Show me that you’re not a liar just like they are.
Prove my point for me why don’t ya.
That is accurate, their opinion of you isn’t something I can verify but calling for Ukraine to surrender is actually accelerationist behavior so…
In what way is that accelerationist?
If I were an accelerationist, I would want the US to overextend into as many conflicts as possible, and I would want those conflicts to last as long as possible, in order to weaken it. I don’t, because I’m not, because that’s a lie.