Hi all, Relatively long time Linux user (2017 to be precise), and about two 3rds of that time has been on Arch and its derivatives.
Been running Endeavour OS for at least 2.5 years now. It’s a solid distro until it’s not. I’d go for months without a single issue then an update comes out of nowhere and just ruins everything to either no return, or just causes me to chase after a fix for hours, and sometimes days. I’m kinda getting tired of this trend of sudden and uncalled for issues.
It’s like a hammer drops on you without you seeing it. I wish they were smaller issues, no, they’re always major. Most of the time I’d just reinstall, and I hate that. It’s so much work for me.
I set things the way I like them and then they’re ruined, and the hunt begins. I have been wanting to switch for a long time, and I honestly have even been looking into some of those immutable distros (that’s how much I don’t want to be fixing my system.
I’m tired, I just want to use my system to get work done). I was also told that Nobara is really good (is it? Never tried it). My only hold back — and it’s probably silly to some of you— is the AUR. I love it.
It’s the most convenient thing ever, and possibly the main reason why I have stuck with Arch and its kids. Everything is there.
So, what do y’all recommend? I was once told by some kind soul to use an immutable distro and setup “distrobox” on it if I wanted the AUR.
I’ve never tried this “distrobox” thing (I can research it, no problem). I also game here and there and would like to squeeze as much performance as I can out of my PC (all AMD, BTW, and I only play single player games).
So, I don’t know what to do. I need y’all’s suggestions, please. I’ll aggregate all of the suggestions and go through them and (hopefully) come up with something good for my sanity. Please suggest anything you think fits my situation. I don’t care, I will 100% appreciate every single suggestion and look into it.
I’m planning to take it slow on the switch, and do a lot of research before switching. Unless my system shits the bed more than now then I don’t know. I currently can’t upgrade my system, as I wouldn’t be able to log in after the update. It just fails to log in.
I had to restore a 10 days old snapshot to be able to get back into my damn desktop. I have already copied my whole home directory into another drive I have on my PC, so if shit hits the fan, I’ll at least have my data. Help a tired brother out, please <3. Thank you so much in advance.
Maybe immutable distros like fedora silverblue ?
I’m currently experimenting with Nobar. I’ll drive it for a while and see how things go. After that, I’m thinking of Bazzite.
I’ve had the same issues with Endeavour, sometimes you get buggy software and need to roll back. I do a full system backup once a week and update once or twice a day (I like updating frequently as it makes it obvious which package broke your system). When I get a bad package I just restore from backup but exclude /home. Then from there I install packages one at a time until I find that bad one and then just ignore it for a while. It really hasn’t been too bad. I don’t think you’ll find anything like the AUR if you start distrohopping. Debian is the king of set it and forget it, but it might be a shock to go back older packages of everything.
Sounds so annoying to do honestly :/
I’ve just installed Nobara and will give it a whirl for a while and see how it goes.It’s the price of bleeding edge :) Hope you find what you’re looking for in Nobara, my dude.
tldr; look into fedora silverblue maybe ?
I did try an immutable one and ngl, I was a little stressed out using it. I wanted to create a package with the
makecommand and for that I had to go through some hoops I didn’t fully understand, and still couldn’t get it to build.hmm i’ll look into that also i read everything, and you should go with bazzite i think
Bazzite download was showing 1.5 hours and kept failing to download 😂
👁️👄👁️
Lmfao. Exactly
Debian stable. It’s been here for 30 years, it’s the largest community OS, it’ll likely be here in 30 years (or until we destroy ourselves). Any derivative is subject to higher probability of additional issues, stoppage of development in the long run, etc.
If you’re extra lazy, Ubuntu LTS with Ubuntu Pro (free) enabled. You could use that for 10 years (or until Canonical cancels it) before you need to upgrade. Ubuntu is the least risky alternative for boring operation since it’s used in the enterprise and Canonical is profitable. The risk there is Canonical doing an IPO and Ubuntu going the way of tightening access like Red Hat did.
I’ll second Debian. I run it on backports and it’s reasonably stable, but if you want it rock-solid, don’t do that.
You might want to keep your browser more up to date than the rest of your OS. That’s up to you as the user. Mozilla has a deb you can add to Apt manually, should you choose.
I’m in complete agreement with this post. Debian is pretty meticulous with their releases and Ubuntu LTS has a predictable release cadence if that’s more important than “when it’s ready”
Also, whether you see it as a plus or minus, windows wsl defaults to Ubuntu. So, msoft also seems to be somewhat invested in them long term.
Ubuntu? Never. I have had longer less problem free with Arch than Ubuntu. Last time I tried it for a project it was broken on install.
I am all for Debian, love it. But Ubuntu has been crappy since day one.
Interesting. We use it for work since 2016 (high hundreds of workstations) and I’ve used it since 2005 on variety of machines and use cases without significant issues. We’ve also used it to operate a couple of datacenters (OpenStack private clouds) with good results. That said I’ve been using LTS exclusively since 2014 and don’t use PPAs since 2018-20 and it’s been solid. My main machine hasn’t been reinstalled since the initial install in 2014.
Seriously? You have successfully managed to upgrade Ubuntu since 2014? Just to be clear, on desktops?
So you went through 3 desktop environment changes, systemd changes, snap environment changes, and it all worked? I am shocked.
Like I said the last time I even tried Ubuntu a default out of then box feature was broken by default.
And with desktops, it’s always some thing: the snap needs editing and is missing dependencies, a ppa is required, etc. On the server it’s fine but the desktop environment usually requires effort every other update.
Like I said, even at ububtu 4 I broke it in a week and went back to Debian.
I’ve updated my gaming rig twice with no issue using Ubuntu
20.04 to 22.04 to 24.04
Your experience is very different from mine. I usually have to dig in and fix crap that shouldnt be wrong in ubuntu long before I even get to the upgrade phase! Lots of circular problems: oh this snap doesn’t have the full dependencies. Thats ok, I know how to edit them. Except that didn’t work, so lets add the PPA. But that was out of date, lets build from scratch… and so on.
Edit: Let me add something: Glad it worked for you. And Ubuntu is Linux, and we have that in common, and I want to make sure this type of discussion is always framed under “SAME TEAM!”
On desktop, yeah. Unity > GNOME, upstart > systems, snap. I don’t fuck with snap, I just use it as intended, I don’t try to remove it. I think I started actively using it in 2016. As a software developer I understand that only the happy path is reasonably tested so I try not to go too far out of it. 😂
I typically wait for the LTS point release before upgrading. I check the release notes. I check if anything is broken after the upgrade, fix as needed. I’m sure I’ve done some stuff when the migration to GNOME happened. But that’s to be expected when a major component change occurs. If you had some non-default config or workflow, it might require rework. E.g. some custom PulseAudio config broke on my laptop with the migration to Pipewire in 24.04. But on that legendary desktop install, the only unexpected breakage was during an upgrade when the power went out. Luckily upgrades are just apt operations so I was able to recover and finish the upgrade manually.
I think a friend is running a 2012 or 2010 install. 🥲
And I’ve also swapped multiple hardware platforms on this install. 😂 Went AMD > Intel > AMD > more AMD. Swapped SSDs, went single to mirror, increased in size.
I mean… once you kick the Windows-brain reinstall habit and you learn enough, the automatic instinct upon something unexpected becomes to investigate and fix it. Reinstall is just so much more laborious on a customized machine.
Wow, that is impressive. I have been using Linux full time since around 2003. Have had it on a lot of machines in a variety of flavors. Ubuntu was always the one that did something stupid that I had to figure out to fix, and by stupid I mean Canonical’s choices more than anything else. Your example gives me hope at least.
I am using an Arch rolling now that was installed about 5 years ago, and it has been far easier to maintain than anything else. Maybe that is because change is incremental, instead of all at once. My laptop has Fedora for a couple of years and that too has been painless. I have not done a single thing except click update on that machine.
The other desktops/laptops are a variety of Debian, Suse, and Slack just to keep things interesting, but are not used nearly as frequently, so dont get updated as often.
apt broke my entire computer, so no
Solus OS is pretty stable
Been using Linux almost 30 years, went from Redhat to everything else, and now I’m back on Redhat to stay. Fedora KDE for a nice, boring, up to date, and bulletproof OS.
Definitely agree. The KDE spin used to have some quirks and bugs, but have been running it on my laptop as a daily driver for nearly six months with no real issues and it is rock solid reliable. Fedora also has a ton of community and commercial support so pretty much any Linux app will work fine on there.
One of ublue’s offerings are probably best. Immutability is great for resiliency and updates are easily rolled back if something were to go wrong. Bazzite is great for gaming, otherwise checkout Aurora and Bluefin.
I installed aurora and distrobox got me a bit confused, so it is now on the back burner until I read more about it.
You probably won’t need distrobox much unless you’re a dev. Most packages will be available as a flatpak or in homebrew. You could also consider using Nix, which will most likely have every package you’d want.
I wanted to build “ntfs-automount” from source and I wasn’t able to do it on distrobox
It should work fine, but you might have to manually install the udev rules after creating them in distrobox. Is there something you need that can’t be accomplished with systemd.mount or editing /etc/fstab?
Bazzite docs also recommend this tool - media-automount-generator - which seems to accomplish a similar thing.y
A few paragraphs would do wonders for the legibility of your post.
You want bazzite, for this usecase, disregard anyone who suggests something that isn’t immutable, all of the immutable suggestions are valid, but if it’s not immutable, it is huge downgrade for this usecase.
I’m leaning towards an immutable, but to be fully honest, they’re a very, very new thing to me and understand nothing about them. Like when you give an idiot a grenade. That’s me with an immutable distros. Lol
I need to learn more about them and how things work, because they do sound like what I’m looking for.with bazzite it’s just regular fedora essentially except substitute the normal rpm commands for rpm-ostree and you’re essentially golden
So, when you install things with rpm-ostree, will whatever I install stick, or will it be overridden whenever the system updates?
It’ll stick, but you’re really meant to use flathub/flatpak to install things wherever possible, rpm-ostree is kindof a backup method.
I get that, but sometimes I need dependcies or packages that I can’t get as flatpaks. Like today, I wanted to install a driver (or whatever it is) that’s called “ntfs-automount” and it needs to be built from source with
sudo make installAnd that I couldn’t do on an immutable distro. And it is not available anywhere except the AUR and GitHub.
if you can make an rpm you can install it with rpm-ostree like any other fedora based distro. Immutability doesn’t prevent this.
Awesome and good to know. I’m actually experimenting with distros to see where this takes me. I’m currently running Nobara with snapshots set up in grub. It also has other kernels entries in grub after big updates so you can roll back if things break.
Fedora Workstation has been really good in my experience. The available software is shockingly up to date and I haven’t run into much breakage of any kind in the year or so I’ve been using it across 2 systems (despite my best efforts every few months when the urge to tinker hits me). I do occasionally run into issues caused by the default SELinux policies, but they’re not especially difficult to work around if you’re comfortable using the terminal.
I do share your sentiment about the AUR - I definitely miss it at times. That said, Flatpaks and the fact that pre-built RPMs are so commonplace have both softened the blow a lot.
Came from Arch and OpenSuse. Fedora has been such a great switch. As I’ve gotten older and became a dad, my computer time at home is limited and I don’t have endless evenings to troubleshoot shit. Fedora has been stable for me for the last 4 years. I use the KDE spin.
Thank you. I’ve run Fedora for a long while, too. Albeit, it was a while ago (not sure how good it is now), but I’ve never had any luck with its kde version. It was always broken (for me at least). Also, hunting for apps was kind of a big issue. Then come copr repos. But I guess we have a good case with flatpaks now. Even thought I couldn’t use them before due to storage constraints, but now, that’s not an issue. So, I’ll keep Fedora in mind. I appreciate you
It’s currently the most simple to use and “just works” option.
I reckon that mantle should go to Fedora Silverblue over Fedora Workstation.
Personally found an immutable distro to be too restrictive at the moment when it comes to installing non flatpak software. If all your apps are flatpaks then everything just works and its great and super stable however some apps I just couldn’t get working with distrobox. Switch to fedora workstation from ublue aurora and have loved it. Been super stable and everything just works
Look. I’ve been there. I started my Linux journey with Arch based distros, then distrohopped a lot, and finally found the best for me, and what I personally consider the best either for normal users or those that don’t want to do any maintenance.
It’s the Universal Blue family of distros: Bazzite (gaming / KDE / gnome) Aurora (standard / development / KDE) Bluefin (standard / development / gnome)
Set it and forget about it. It just freaking works. For GUI apps install from the Discover app store (which uses Flatpak), for cli apps use Homebrew (brew install whatever). If you can’t find something, open Distrobox (already included) create an Arch container, install whatever you want from the AUR, and use it like you’re used to. It works like freaking magic.
If somehow you manage to brick your installation, when you reboot you’ll be able to boot to a past snapshot.
You just can’t fail with this. It’s the best of the best IMHO.
You absolutely can fail. I daily drive bazzite but many things have been pretty rough:
Any coding apps that will use an external device -> you can’t use flatpak. You have to use distrobox that constantly freezes your entire mouse for 3-5 seconds upon any sort of dialog, settings, saving, anything where it has to access the filesystem. Then you have to add udev rules to directories that in the documentation says not to write to, and reloading the rules doesn’t work for testing, you have to fully restart with every minor change or it will seem like the change didn’t work.
Luckily most device drivers seem to work in the provided arch distrobox but holy dependency hell. Things will fail to install because they need a package that exists on the host but not the container so you get an unsolvable “file exists” conflict. When installing a package, it will sometimes just try to grab an old version of a dependency specifically that will 404 out instead of just grabbing the most recent version (never happened on arch itself to me)
Setting up a plasma vault with gocryptfs was not fun figuring out how. Also ran into tons of dependency problems and the fact that fedora just abandoned it specifically. Ended up just having to stick the binary in a random folder and point to it.
Any sort of document authentication/signing -> doesn’t work and will not work in the future for a long time.
You absolutely have to install rpms still for corectrl, any external devices, like drawing tablets, etc…
Some games inexplicably use <50% GPU and <40% CPU with terrible framerates and will not go any higher (or lower) no matter what, switching between low and high settings and resolution results in 0fps change.
When I have my config set and don’t have to change anything, it is super super nice to never have to manually update, but anything outside of very basic usage is weaving through nonstandard undocumented territory.
Bazzite trades maintenance headaches for configuration and installation headaches. For me, that is worth it.
I’m sorry Bazzite didn’t work out for you.
Your use case sounds like a better fit for Arch, since you have very specific needs like adding uncommon device drivers, gocryptfs, udev rules, etc. For anyone else, wanting to try Bazzite, I’ll answer the rest of the topics:
Flatpak apps with external devices
All apps I’ve tried support external devices just fine, in the event the app you need doesn’t support external devices out of the box, try adding USB device access through the app’s permissions in the System Settings app.
Distrobox Freezes & dependencies
I have an all AMD desktop PC, and an intel laptop, Distrobox runs perfectly fine. Every package will rely on dependencies inside Distrobox.
Edit: after writing this post, I realized I needed someway to de-drm my Audible books, so I installed the Libation RPM in my Fedora Distrobox, it failed to launch because it needed libicu or something like that, so I opened the Fedora Distrobox terminal and typed sudo dnf install libicu, done. Launched perfectly like it was installed on my base Bazzite installation. But all the dependencies remain isolated, unable to crap all over my system if something happens. My system remains shielded from dependency apocalypse.
Encryption
Bazzite supports LUKS full disk encryption.
corectrl
Use LACT, you can install it through the Bazzite Portal (that’s Bazzite 1st run app, you can run it anytime though)
RPMs are needed for any external devices, like drawing tablets, etc…
Any external devices would be a great overstatement. I have the standard PC Peripherals, then I have: xbox 360 controllers, xbox series X controllers, Thrustmaster Wheel, Logitech x56 Flight Stick, none of them require any RPM and just work out of the box, unlike on Windows. For drawing tablets, there are tons that are supported right out of the box without any additional driver, for example Wacom.
For any developers out there wanting to customize Bazzite to fit your particular use case, you can even easily fork the distro and build your own and still get auto-updates, with any additional device drivers, RPMs, and whatever else you want to fulfill your edge use case. Follow this link here.
Wow, what a wall of text. I’m sorry but I’m sure I skimmed some parts.
Look. The bulk of the replies you’re going to get will be like “this is my favourite distro and here’s how it works for you” not “this is the best distro for your criteria.” It’s important to understand the deep level of bias you’re going to get.
But your cause is a noble one. I use a particular style of distro because it can be trusted to install well, back out well, do both safely, and allow validation at every stage. I think it’s a good candidate, and it’s already been mentioned as a really great ‘set it and forget it’ distro.
Good luck.
And what distro might that be?
I would say fedora silverblue. Have been using it for a while. All updates, app and os, are distributed via app center so reasonably foolproof.
And a benefit is that it has podman out of the box so you can run docker images without fiddling with the terminal.
First to answer your main question if I were you I would try NixOS, because it’s declarative so it’s essentially impossible to break, i.e. if it breaks for whatever reason a fresh reinstall will get you back to exactly where you were.
That being said, I know it’s anecdotal but I have been using Arch for (holy crap) 15 years, and I’ve never experienced an update breaking my system. I find that most of the time people complain about Arch breaking with an update they’re either not using Arch (but Manjaro, Endeavor, etc) and rely heavily on AUR which one should specifically not do, much less on Arch derivatives. The AUR is great, but there’s a reason those packages are not on the main repos, don’t use any system critical stuff from them and you should be golden. Also try to figure out why stuff broke when it did, you’ll learn a lot about what you’re doing wrong on your setup because most people would have just updated without any issues. Otherwise it really doesn’t matter which distro you choose, mangling a distro with manual installations to the point where an upgrade breaks them can be done on most of them, and going for a fully immutable one will be very annoying if you’re so interested in poking at the system.
I agree with Nixos as well. Setting it up properly for the first time can take some time but after that it’s very much “forget it”.
I would try NixOS, because it’s declarative so it’s essentially impossible to break
I have been using Arch for (holy crap) 15 years, and I’ve never experienced an update breaking my system
And for this reason I would naysay the people recommending Nixos. I used to use Arch, and had few major problems, but lots of times that required me to engage my brain - and not always when I wanted to. One of the reasons I left was wanting something I wouldn’t have to suddenly deal with, or always keep an eye on the Arch news.
(The main reason I moved though was at that time no internet connection in the house for all those constant updates! And an Ubuntu repository in country for when I did have a slow net connection. Else I might have just stayed with Arch.)
Nix’s declarative model is great in principle, but there’s always things to go wrong in computers. If nothing else, you should always have your browser up to date for security, and up to date means updates - changes. Because Nix is aimed at technical folks, it’s likely to have many hiccups that “just need a bit more learning curve then it’ll be stable” - and that only occur for some people.
Even Mint has things that go wrong, that I can easily fix but worry me when I recommend it to Windows friends. (And I see you’re after Plasma so Mint maybe not the best.)
I agree with this, the issue may be the packages installed rather than the distro. For a more reliable experience, I like to:
- Use Flatpak instead of the AUR where possible
- Use built-in filesystems and avoid DKMS
No, I’ve been running Endeavour forever and know his pain quite well. It’s almost always core packages that break it. None of the stuff from the AUR has ever caused issues. That being said he should be using btrfs and taking regular snapshots. Sometimes I feel like installing grub just to make recovering snapshots easier.
Twice this year I’ve had updates break the system, both were core packages. I just restore a snapshot then delay my next update for a couple days and it’s usually fixed.
That sounds like an awful system to use. I have Arch systems that date back years with unassisted updates, why does it break so much?
It’s pretty common for me at least, I went from manjaro which broke during an update, to endeavour which broke many times but by that point I clued in to btrfs and it’s snapshots. Now I have my home directory split into different hard drives and I just keep my fstab file backed up online in the event that a snapshot can’t save me. Which happened last week, rather than continue on with endeavour I tried CachyOS this time. One day I’ll install Arch the way it was meant to be, but until then…
NIXOS, set and forget. It will not change unless you ask it to. Occasionally things might get renamed, but they set up warnings and don’t deprecate old naming for a long time
NIXOS has been really great so far for me. very stable and mostly easy to figure out. my only problem has been getting SSBM netplay working.
This is the way
