Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
It is quite simple. If they dont comply with the law, they face criminal punishment. If they are unwilling to compensate the victims of their land robbery, then all their assets, including abroad, need to be seized and given to their victims.
The sentimentalities of the criminals can not be a detriment to the rights of the victims. Either the criminals obey and work to resocialize, or they face additional punishment.
As the IDF is a genocidal terror organization Israelis, who largely served in that terror organization, are already getting a very good deal, if they are not imprisoned for multiple decades and only the worst offenders are held criminally liable.
They should rejoice at the opportunity given to them to only repay their victims for the damage they have done.
According to the CBS, about 40% of Jews in Israel were born to a father also born in Israel. Given the relative youth of the Israeli population and the fact that it’s been nearly 80 years since Mandatory Palestine existed, the number is probably quite a bit higher (especially because that number only relates to the fathers, not the mothers), but even if only 60% of Israeli Jews are descendants of settlers, that’s nearly 5 million people. Out of a total population of about 15 million people living in Israel and Palestine combined.
A poll published in may showed that more than 80% and more than half of all Israelis support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and forced expulsion of Arabs from Israel, respectively. That’s five and eight million people. (The poll itself was only published in Hebrew, but I think this is the link).
How can a unified, peaceful country actually be created without “giving into their sentimentality” when somewhere between a third and over half of them feel that way? What is additional punishment? A country cannot afford to imprison that large a proportion of its population, and fines would exacerbate the resentment. I could see some form of community service in the form of war cleanup and having to physically, literally deal with the results of a genocide working to reset people’s perspective on it, but it’s not as though they’re not aware of what’s happening. I don’t know that simply being confronted with the viscerality of the genocide they knowingly support would do much, especially with such a high proportion of the population who do support it.
I’m not saying that the answer is to just give in to the demands of genocide supporters. I’m saying that it’s hard to imagine a workable solution and simply evicting and heavily taxing a whole bunch of people is going to lead to resentment.
I agree it is not simple in execution, but it is simple in the basis of it. Of course that requires external forces to enforce the law against anyone who chooses to fight it.
Ways to mitigate things could be a “Dezionification” process that teaches Israelis about their crimes. However you are right it will probably not go without using violence to enforce the law against Israeli criminals.
Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
Yeah, I don’t know how to solve the issues of two separate families feeling ownership for the same location (fifty years ago, a Palestinian family including several living members was evicted from a home, and an Israeli couple moved in and then died, leaving their property to their children who played no role in taking the property from the Palestinians), but the solution is not to deport all of the Israelis from the region.
My first instinct would be that the government would need to build a LOT of desirable housing and offer a cash incentive to all current and former residents to cede ownership claims to other properties in exchange for the deed to one of the newer properties, but it immediately occurs to me that the wealth difference between the average Palestinian family and the average Israeli family is probably large enough that there would essentially be a self-selection bias. Especially given the fact that poverty and food insecurity reduce our ability to make good financial decisions.
I can’t think of a resolution for that situation that doesn’t involve someone feeling resentful. I’m not saying they have equal claim- but I know that the descendants of settlers are also people, who don’t want to be evicted from the (stolen) houses in which they were raised, and sowing resentment has not helped the region in the past.
Removed by mod
I mean, eminent domain exists for this reason, but generally, compensation for stolen property is the norm because of the difficulty of dealing with inheritances and the like several steps removed from the original crime.
Recognizing the validity of residency is not the same as recognizing privilege. “You can stay under the same criteria as anyone else, because we aren’t here to engage in ethnic cleansing” and “Your property is sacrosanct and cannot be touched under any circumstances” are two different concepts, after all.
Oh, there are a thousand ways they could improve their current way of handling it. I just don’t know what the best way would be, though it would definitely involve eminent domain. I guess a lottery system for determining which families get the ancestral home?
I used to take solace in the fact that people smarter than I were in charge of this, so they could do better than that as a solution, but I’m increasingly skeptical that they actually will.
One of the most horrific things to learn in life is that not only are people in power often shitheads, they’re often stupid shitheads as well.
It’s… frustrating when examining policy discussions on an academic level.
By this logic Germans would not have had to give back the property that the Nazis robbed from the Jews. This is complete nonsense.
You cannot inherit legally, what was robbed from someone else. The legal ownership belongs to the original owners or their inheritors.
Any Israeli living in a house or on land they robbed, must either leave or buy it from the legitimate owners at a fair price. Irrespective of that the legitimate owners must also be fully compensated for the inability to use their land for all the years it was kept from them.
This is the legal and just way. Any other way invites more crimes and crimes against humanity as it rewards the criminals including by rewarding their descendants.
I can’t see descendants of settlers who are en masse being kicked out of their homes and heavily taxed coming together to peacefully build a society with the people whom they ceded their homes to and whom they’re paying those reparations. Can you? How would you go about it without making them so resentful that they either refuse to help rebuild or start attacking the institutions of the new single state?
I see the philosophical balance your solution would bring and it’s what I would want to do if I suddenly found myself a settler/settler’s descendant, but I don’t think enforcing it will lead to lasting peace. Perhaps with an education system that truly integrates children and teaches all of their history, without whitewashing any of it. But I think there’s a very strong cultural attachment in Israel to homeschooling, and don’t know if enforcing public schooling would create further resentment.
It is quite simple. If they dont comply with the law, they face criminal punishment. If they are unwilling to compensate the victims of their land robbery, then all their assets, including abroad, need to be seized and given to their victims.
The sentimentalities of the criminals can not be a detriment to the rights of the victims. Either the criminals obey and work to resocialize, or they face additional punishment.
As the IDF is a genocidal terror organization Israelis, who largely served in that terror organization, are already getting a very good deal, if they are not imprisoned for multiple decades and only the worst offenders are held criminally liable.
They should rejoice at the opportunity given to them to only repay their victims for the damage they have done.
I don’t think it’s very simple at all.
According to the CBS, about 40% of Jews in Israel were born to a father also born in Israel. Given the relative youth of the Israeli population and the fact that it’s been nearly 80 years since Mandatory Palestine existed, the number is probably quite a bit higher (especially because that number only relates to the fathers, not the mothers), but even if only 60% of Israeli Jews are descendants of settlers, that’s nearly 5 million people. Out of a total population of about 15 million people living in Israel and Palestine combined.
A poll published in may showed that more than 80% and more than half of all Israelis support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and forced expulsion of Arabs from Israel, respectively. That’s five and eight million people. (The poll itself was only published in Hebrew, but I think this is the link).
How can a unified, peaceful country actually be created without “giving into their sentimentality” when somewhere between a third and over half of them feel that way? What is additional punishment? A country cannot afford to imprison that large a proportion of its population, and fines would exacerbate the resentment. I could see some form of community service in the form of war cleanup and having to physically, literally deal with the results of a genocide working to reset people’s perspective on it, but it’s not as though they’re not aware of what’s happening. I don’t know that simply being confronted with the viscerality of the genocide they knowingly support would do much, especially with such a high proportion of the population who do support it.
I’m not saying that the answer is to just give in to the demands of genocide supporters. I’m saying that it’s hard to imagine a workable solution and simply evicting and heavily taxing a whole bunch of people is going to lead to resentment.
I agree it is not simple in execution, but it is simple in the basis of it. Of course that requires external forces to enforce the law against anyone who chooses to fight it.
Ways to mitigate things could be a “Dezionification” process that teaches Israelis about their crimes. However you are right it will probably not go without using violence to enforce the law against Israeli criminals.
I’m sure the Israelis expelled from other countries where land was stolen from them will be pleased to hear this.
Removed by mod
So Palestinians must pay for the crimes of others?
I think that’s about the polar opposite of where we’re going with this.
Of course. People who had their land stolen from them should have it restituted to them no matter their ethnicity or citizenship.
Palestinians that lived in what is now Israel are very old and very few in number now. Israelis won’t feel safe with having Palestinians moving into their neighbourhoods after what happened on October 7 for at least another generation.
So right of return is dead now. Hamas killed it.
But there are the settlements. Israel has returned land from settlements to Palestinians in the past. They did this in on part of Palestine… Gaza. And there was never any problems from Gaza ever again after that, right? Nope, what happened was a plurality of Palestinians voted for Hamas and once they were in power there weren’t any more elections in Gaza.
The problem mostly stems around poor leadership. Given their past experiences with attempts to exchange land for peace always ending in Palestinians seeing it as a sign of weakness, Israelis turned to Netanyahu who sucks. Palestinians have been convinced they should hate Israelis so they turn to Hamas (fascists who use hatred as tool to gain and maintain power). Fatah is an alternative, but they are corrupt and since it’s easy to blame Israel for everything there’s no incentive to root out corruption.
But there are plenty of Israelis that don’t like Netanyahu. There are plenty of Palestinians that are against Hamas. You just won’t hear about them much on lemmy because people here tend to think of countries as “good guys” and “bad guys” and discussing internal politics of countries goes against the simple narratives people like.
And we should not ignore the problem of Iran’s government. There obviously isn’t going to much of chance for peace if there’s a country in the region that will send rockets to whatever faction is willing to fire them at Israel. Before October 7, we were very close to seeing official recognition of Israel by the Saudis and normalization of relations. This kind of thing isn’t in Iran’s interests and they have proxies that can attack Israel so…
October 7 was obviously beyond previous attacks but it’s been an ongoing conflict between Israel and Iran’s proxies for decades. So how do you convince an authoritarian theocratic regime to chill out on a country their whole propaganda system has villainized for decades? So… once again bad leaders.
So yeah… we could only wish this was just a land for peace kind of problem. That’s hard to solve to be sure, but nothing compared to the complexities involved with the various factions throughout the region.
I’m sure that instances like these far outweigh the exact opposite