Yes! Of course it was. 100%! No denying of that. :) I was rather referring to the so called “liberation of Poland” by the Soviets and all the things that happened afterwards. The puppet government of People’s Republic of Poland and all the other things.
From the Polish communists I have spoken to, the Polish People’s Republic was flawed but overall a net positive, with dramatic industrialization and improvements in quality of life. There was civil tension between the nationalists, Nazi sympathizers, and the communists. Overall, far better than Nazi occupation, and it isn’t close.
i remember a pic of an arse-faced woman showing the monthly ration provided to her by the state in poland, as if saying “look at this misery”. probably the pic was shot in the early 80s. when i first saw that the first thing that came to my mind is that, in northeastern brazil (my home region), around the same time, about 1.5 million people died of starvation and malnutrition during the drought of 1977-83, and many would literally give an arm or a leg for that ration.
Well… I’m not a fan of communism so in my opinion of course will differ. Nevertheless I think it was net negative especially because of personal freedoms (or lack there of), censorship, police brutality etc., but I totally agree that it was far better than Nazi occupation. Of course it was. It was peace time finally after all. History isn’t black and white so there were some good things from PRL (polish acronym for People’s Republic of Poland). Free education, healthcare and mass construction of public housing were some of the good ones that to this day make our lives in Poland better (the prefabricated housing especially in my opinion) but I think it could have been done without all the atrocities inflicted by the puppet government if only Poland was independent after the war and not under the de facto Soviet occupation.
Well, I am a communist, so I tend to weigh communist perspectives more heavily. It’s important to recognize that much of the opposition to the socialist system came from nationalists and far-right groups, which caused civil strife.
That’s understandable. By the way in my opinion much of the anti-sentiment towards communism in Polish society today comes from all the bad stuff the PRL government did so maybe if that didn’t happen the outlook on it today would be different. For example as a strong free speech advocate I think it’s a shame that today in Poland “promoting communism” is prohibited by law (it’s not even a normal legislation but it’s enshrined in the constitution). I personally think that shouldn’t be the case.
That’s fair, and as you point out the reaction against the socialist system is being used more for political gain by the Polish ruling class. There are other Polish users on this site, so I won’t pretend to be an expert on the PRL, but I do think you can seek out their perspectives as well if you’d like, though I’m sure you have other ways to do so given that you’re Polish yourself.
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported.
The Poles asked for their troops back when they were forming a USSR-based army and were told that thousands had mysteriously escaped. Then when asked for an official investigation, the Soviets broke ties with the Polish government in exile and made their own.
The Soviets themselves later admitted it was the NKVD. Are you defending the USSR from its own slander?
You have no explanation for why the bullets were German and produced in 1941, why the rope was German, the method Nazi, and the originator of the story Goebbels. There’s mountains of evidence against the documents listed as “proof” of Soviet guilt:
The mistakes and inconsistencies in this letter are many. To start, the letter is “Top Secret”. Standard procedure for a “Top Secret” letter were to write on the letter the name of the person who typed it, the names of all the persons who have seen the document, the names of all persons to whom this letter is to be sent, the number of copies made of this letter, the carbon paper used to make a copy of it and finally the tape of the typewriter used to make this paper. For the “Beria document”, none of these exist. Without these precautions, it is not a “Top Secret” letter. The forger of this document either was not aware of the requirements of a “Top Secret” paper, or such requirements could not be forged by them. Either way, this paper immediately looses its value, and furthermore shows it is a forgery.
But the mistakes do not stop here. The signatures of the members of the Politburo go against the form. In this letter, 4 members of the Politburo have simply signed their names. By this act, they have rejected the request of Beria. You see, if the members of the Politburo agreed to send out an order or to carry out a request, it was necessary for them to sign the document, and to write next to their signatures “agreed” or “after”. In order for the request to be agreed and the order to be sent out, the members had to express their agreement to the request or their agreement to an order being sent. If they simply signed the paper, it meant that the members had read the document, but had not agreed to it and had not sent out any orders. The forger was obviously not aware of this and has made the mistake. Even if this request is authentic, which it is not, it was not accepted by the Politburo.
On the first page of the document, along with the four signatures of Stalin, Molotov, Mikoyan and Voroshilov, the forger added the names of Kaganovich and Kalinin underneath these. What the forger was not aware of, is that both Kaganovich and Kalinin were absent from the 13th Session of the Politburo in March 1940. They could not have placed their signatures on this document.
No worries! And yea, I know we don’t agree 100%, but I do think we overall agree more than disagree, at least from what I can tell. Personally, I’m often posting when my ADHD is pushing me away from responsibilities like work, chores, etc so it isn’t always the best for me 🫠
Reached out to finally get organized IRL though, so I managed to overcome my procrastination and social anxiety enough for that!
But I do think we overall more agree than disagree
Precisely; well put
Also I can relate somewhat with the impulses and procrastination (tho it’s ASD for me LOL), but especially the anxiety and am glad you are able to work on improving in that regard :)
The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.
As for the Soviets “admitting it,” it was the anti-communist factions that produced the “evidence,” and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.
German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!
Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it’s internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.
So let’s put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There’s no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?
Insert meme: Oh, I wouldn’t say “freed”, more like “under new management” 😅
It was a good thing to shut down Auschwitz, in my opinion.
Yes! Of course it was. 100%! No denying of that. :) I was rather referring to the so called “liberation of Poland” by the Soviets and all the things that happened afterwards. The puppet government of People’s Republic of Poland and all the other things.
From the Polish communists I have spoken to, the Polish People’s Republic was flawed but overall a net positive, with dramatic industrialization and improvements in quality of life. There was civil tension between the nationalists, Nazi sympathizers, and the communists. Overall, far better than Nazi occupation, and it isn’t close.
i remember a pic of an arse-faced woman showing the monthly ration provided to her by the state in poland, as if saying “look at this misery”. probably the pic was shot in the early 80s. when i first saw that the first thing that came to my mind is that, in northeastern brazil (my home region), around the same time, about 1.5 million people died of starvation and malnutrition during the drought of 1977-83, and many would literally give an arm or a leg for that ration.
Well… I’m not a fan of communism so in my opinion of course will differ. Nevertheless I think it was net negative especially because of personal freedoms (or lack there of), censorship, police brutality etc., but I totally agree that it was far better than Nazi occupation. Of course it was. It was peace time finally after all. History isn’t black and white so there were some good things from PRL (polish acronym for People’s Republic of Poland). Free education, healthcare and mass construction of public housing were some of the good ones that to this day make our lives in Poland better (the prefabricated housing especially in my opinion) but I think it could have been done without all the atrocities inflicted by the puppet government if only Poland was independent after the war and not under the de facto Soviet occupation.
If you have an open mind and have ~3 minutes, I can recommend this short clip from a Michael Parenti lecture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSpVB_XXXBQ
Further “reading” if you’re interested:
Well, I am a communist, so I tend to weigh communist perspectives more heavily. It’s important to recognize that much of the opposition to the socialist system came from nationalists and far-right groups, which caused civil strife.
That’s understandable. By the way in my opinion much of the anti-sentiment towards communism in Polish society today comes from all the bad stuff the PRL government did so maybe if that didn’t happen the outlook on it today would be different. For example as a strong free speech advocate I think it’s a shame that today in Poland “promoting communism” is prohibited by law (it’s not even a normal legislation but it’s enshrined in the constitution). I personally think that shouldn’t be the case.
That’s fair, and as you point out the reaction against the socialist system is being used more for political gain by the Polish ruling class. There are other Polish users on this site, so I won’t pretend to be an expert on the PRL, but I do think you can seek out their perspectives as well if you’d like, though I’m sure you have other ways to do so given that you’re Polish yourself.
Thanks for the discussion. Have a good day my friend :)
That’s true, but what about that requires this?
Katyn gets pinned on the Soviets because Goebbels reported on it and it became a useful story, but the execution method was distinctly Nazi, ie killing men, women, and children from behind into mass graves. The ammunition was German-produced in 1941, and the rope used to bind the hands of the victims was German made.
The Soviets absolutely killed Polish soldiers, but the character of their involvement was not anywhere close to what the Nazis reported.
The Poles asked for their troops back when they were forming a USSR-based army and were told that thousands had mysteriously escaped. Then when asked for an official investigation, the Soviets broke ties with the Polish government in exile and made their own.
The Soviets themselves later admitted it was the NKVD. Are you defending the USSR from its own slander?
You have no explanation for why the bullets were German and produced in 1941, why the rope was German, the method Nazi, and the originator of the story Goebbels. There’s mountains of evidence against the documents listed as “proof” of Soviet guilt:
Skip to the “forgeries” section.
Thanks for your effortposting BTW. I might not agree with your every take but it’s good work regardless!
No worries! And yea, I know we don’t agree 100%, but I do think we overall agree more than disagree, at least from what I can tell. Personally, I’m often posting when my ADHD is pushing me away from responsibilities like work, chores, etc so it isn’t always the best for me 🫠
Reached out to finally get organized IRL though, so I managed to overcome my procrastination and social anxiety enough for that!
Precisely; well put
Also I can relate somewhat with the impulses and procrastination (tho it’s ASD for me LOL), but especially the anxiety and am glad you are able to work on improving in that regard :)
Per our other conversation, the Soviets were trading for German finished goods. Why would you not expect to find German goods here??
And again, the Soviets themselves admitted to it. Why are you even discussing forgeries?
The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.
As for the Soviets “admitting it,” it was the anti-communist factions that produced the “evidence,” and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.
German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!
Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it’s internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.
So let’s put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There’s no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?
Oh no, they killed nazis???
Unforgivable!!