Kinda wish I had social media right now so I could tell DevilsPanties to go fuck themselves.
CEOs are demanding that programmers use AI, and measuring how much they use it. If they don’t use it enough, they’re in the next round of layoffs. Vibe coders are people who don’t know how to code, and probably aren’t working for a corp.
Weird. I got a totally different read. I’m probably mistaken, but I thought it was suggesting that they were doing malicious compliance by making shitty code that will fail the moment they are no longer maintaining it, so that the corporation will have to bring them back with a consultancy rate.
This is correct i have worked with C levels in the past and can tell you. Sometimes they force their workforce to use a product or tech for the sole purpose that they have an investment in it. You ever wonder why your company changed process work flow and application or vendor when the other one worked just fine and the new solution makes your job harder. It because your C level had it in his portfolio and waned to juice the stock.
Also when it comes to stocks and shareholders it has nothing to do with facts or anything based in reality but just on vibes and perception and the perception is AI make line go up. So it gets pushed on the rest of us.
Right. AI shitting bad code is making developer work hell, not making them look good.
No developer enjoys fixing bad code, the core of our work is making our production neat and maintainable. There might be a small minority of assholes with the dead man’s switch mentality, but everyone hates those, including other developers.
Suggesting there’s some kind of conspiracy of developers intentionally sabotaging AI in their field is gross. AI is just incompetent.
As someone else said here, programmers are not a monolith. However, I’ve seen it multiple times on the job and in social media where programmers are using these tools to write code voluntarily. The code produced is often garbage, and I have to reject it at review time, but there are a lot of programmers using these things willingly.
The point is how arrogant this comic is. There are as many artists using AI as there are programmers. And acting like all programmers are just accepting it to send themselves “to the bread line” and that artists are somehow above that is arrogant, elitist, bullshit.
They don’t program, therefore they’re not programmers (and they’ll probably never be again, since using LLMs has been proven to damage one’s ability to reason and learn, probably permanently).
It does look, from the outside, suspiciously like a large number of devs don’t care. For every dev that complains, you seem to get one who pretends to be a “voice of reason” or sth and, while they of course see why people might be suspicious AI, don’t worry, they’re one of the good ones, will rattle off a list of stuff they now routinely let an AI do and they’re happy about. Just the small stuff, just the boring stuff, just this, just that, and the other thing. Don’t fight it, Ai Is HeRe To StAy.
You won’t get that from artists, only people who are jealous of their cooler younger brothers the work artists put into their craft and want the benefits without the work.
Bullshit. That’s so fucking elitist. Go ask all the people using midjourney to generate slop if they’re artists. They’re artists as much as vibe coders are programmers.
Artists are a very broad group that doesn’t have a specific definition.
I mean, is someone doodling on their notebook an artist? They are creating handmade art, are they not?
Creating art is something intrinsically human. Capitalism has destroyed that. Now unless you have skill that you can monetize, you aren’t an artist. When it used to be that anyone who created art, no matter how bad, was an artist.
Then you understand why “actual” developers feel insulted and protest against being part of that ridiculous, malevolent conspiracy theory in the comic.
This shit is trying to rile up an old, stupid “creative vs tech people” war. It’s completely missing who the real enemy is, instead misrepresenting and putting an easy target on the basic nerds like it’s fucking 1980.
It stinks. It’s reactionary bullshit, and they should be ashamed of it. If you still can’t see it, I don’t know what to tell you.
I will still maintain that I have a certain impression from the outside (artists are doing shit about the situation, devs need to get off their asses) which I’d imagine is what others are seeing too.
Bunch of disparate thoughts about this. Apologies.
You can’t just purity test an entire profession. Or at least it isn’t reasonable to do so.
You have to dig, but there are artists and authors out there who have positive opinions about AI. I’m sure the folks more active on [email protected] could get a list together of their favorite sneer targets.
I’d suggest that it’s worth remembering that a large portion of any online discourse is going to be made up of teenagers, college students, and people new to whatever it is they’re discussing. But almost all of them will talk with an implied authority on whatever subject it is anyway. Many subs on reddit have done demorgraphics polls (or polls that included a question about age) and the results makes the sillier places like relationship advice make a hell of a lot more sense.
I have almost a decade of work experience in IT, more if you count some intro to programming teaching gigs I did. AI coding assistance tools are positioned perfectly to be like crack for early learners, but don’t actually add too much value for more experienced folks (especially not anything can’t be done faster with existing non-ai tools, like an IDE’s code snippets features for repeated boilerplate code, which is the most frequent excuse I see online).
That said, I have literally never met any dev in real life that thinks favorably of AI coding assistance.
What I see more and more is corporate management types being afraid that all the hype for AI coming out of Gartner etc means that if they don’t force their employees to use it they will get left behind as their competitors magically produce more somehow. At that point as an employee your choices are to work to meet whatever shit metric they’ve constructed or give up making a paycheck.
It’s very easy to tell other people they need to be more principled when it’s not your food/shelter/insurance/livelyhood on the line.
And it’s also worth noting that what the current wave of popular AI (LLMs) does best is generate text. So of course you’re going to see text posts online trying to shift the window. That’s the company using their horrific tool as designed. There was evidence of AI bots hyping AI in the programming subs on reddit that got overshadowed by them shutting off third party API access.
AI is only as inevitable for as long as the megacorps can keep funneling money into the pit. The world leader in AI conpanies, OpenAI, is doing so great with money that they are trying to threaten their business partner Microsoft out of roughly $40B. This could all blow up fairly soon. I hope it does.
There absolutely are devs out there who are getting ground down, where there principles are becoming eroded over time.
But like with many things in life, the rabble at the bottom aren’t the ones effecting real long term change, media coverage, corporate adoption, etc. Don’t turn this into some crab pot situation.
Go after the tech reporters continually giving AI the benefit of the doubt. Go after industry steering publications like Gartner. Go after politicians giving AI projects sweetheart deals that allow them to coast by without having to compete fairly based off their actual costs (OpenAI loses money on every request it serves). That allow AI datacenters to continuously violate local laws. That allow the datacenters to pollute their local water table. Go after the management enacting requirements that their subordinates demonstrate how AI is improving their work efficiency on pain of firing. You get the picture.
And sure, call out individuals. But please don’t label us all as a group on this.
EDIT: old man intensifies. And another thing! (to support my point that the corps need to be the target in these discussions):
Companies like Microsoft are resorting to forcing AI features into their products and defaulting those AI features to ON in order to get the user numbers they need to keep justifying the absurd expenditure on AI, and to be able to keep pushing the false narrative into the media of everyone using AI.
These effectively fabricated increases in user numbers from these features being default on means that the impact of individual programmers and devs deciding to use or not use AI are not going to move the needle significantly enough to make a difference.
I’m proud to say that currently my workplace has all this shit disabled on an enterprise level, and firewall blocks preventing using any of it. Unfortunately that will only last as long as it takes for the suits to come up with a sufficiently paranoid acceptable use policy. We’re doing what we can to keep stoking the idea that putting any info into these things is effectively selling it to potential competitors, but that can only go so far against Gartner and the like whispering in the C-suite’s ear.
Anyway. Everyone has a duty to say no to this shit, but all the companies are already using every dirty trick they can to boost the user numbers. If you’re running around under the impression that the absurd user numbers represent true users, and that those users must be comprised entirely of tech workers because artists never would use AI, then you’re looking at a false narrative being pushed by the people who stand to make the most money off this shit. The user numbers are not accurate to begin with.
This is not true. I’ve seen many posts from artists, or at least people who consider themselves as such, praising generative AI as just another tool magicking the boring parts away.
And to be clear, I am not for using gen AI professionally in either of these fields.
Are those the same people saying how AI “democratises” art? And how nice it is that even people with disabilities can now finally make art and how ableistic any and all pushback against AI is? Yeah, that’s the ones I mentioned.
You are starting your point by saying you are perceiving a lot of developers advocating for gen AI. I am saying I don’t see that many actual, professional developers doing so, I actually see a lot who don’t, and I also see a lot of “not developers” who do. Yes, the AI bros are very vocal. They also don’t represent “developers”.
Well, now we’re at the point where we both only have anecdotes and I’d have to take your word over my memories from numerous discussions over the last years. While artists are actively protesting, for non-devs it looks like developers are, in large numbers, at least okay with AI. That’s probably what DevilsPanties is observing. Hence the comic.
Developers have had easy employment for a long time, and it’s only beginning to turn to shit.
We simply aren’t used to protest a lot. It’s starting though. Look at the video game developers starting to unionize, for now it’s still making news when they do.
Kinda wish I had social media right now so I could tell DevilsPanties to go fuck themselves.
CEOs are demanding that programmers use AI, and measuring how much they use it. If they don’t use it enough, they’re in the next round of layoffs. Vibe coders are people who don’t know how to code, and probably aren’t working for a corp.
Seriously, attacking the workers? Motherfuckers.
Weird. I got a totally different read. I’m probably mistaken, but I thought it was suggesting that they were doing malicious compliance by making shitty code that will fail the moment they are no longer maintaining it, so that the corporation will have to bring them back with a consultancy rate.
Honestly that was my read too.
We know AI won’t replace us and if it does we’ll come back for more money than before.
I saw it similar but more they’re laughing about how it’s gonna make ass product.
Hey,
@[email protected] @[email protected]
I love you and your comic, but there are some good points here.
This is correct i have worked with C levels in the past and can tell you. Sometimes they force their workforce to use a product or tech for the sole purpose that they have an investment in it. You ever wonder why your company changed process work flow and application or vendor when the other one worked just fine and the new solution makes your job harder. It because your C level had it in his portfolio and waned to juice the stock.
Also when it comes to stocks and shareholders it has nothing to do with facts or anything based in reality but just on vibes and perception and the perception is AI make line go up. So it gets pushed on the rest of us.
Right. AI shitting bad code is making developer work hell, not making them look good.
No developer enjoys fixing bad code, the core of our work is making our production neat and maintainable. There might be a small minority of assholes with the dead man’s switch mentality, but everyone hates those, including other developers.
Suggesting there’s some kind of conspiracy of developers intentionally sabotaging AI in their field is gross. AI is just incompetent.
As someone else said here, programmers are not a monolith. However, I’ve seen it multiple times on the job and in social media where programmers are using these tools to write code voluntarily. The code produced is often garbage, and I have to reject it at review time, but there are a lot of programmers using these things willingly.
If a programmer takes AI generated code and uses it without reviewing or correcting it, then that programmer should indeed lose their job.
But nothing wrong with using AI to make a first draft.
The point is how arrogant this comic is. There are as many artists using AI as there are programmers. And acting like all programmers are just accepting it to send themselves “to the bread line” and that artists are somehow above that is arrogant, elitist, bullshit.
They don’t program, therefore they’re not programmers (and they’ll probably never be again, since using LLMs has been proven to damage one’s ability to reason and learn, probably permanently).
Vibe coders, maybe.
Victims of the LLM scam, definitely.
It does look, from the outside, suspiciously like a large number of devs don’t care. For every dev that complains, you seem to get one who pretends to be a “voice of reason” or sth and, while they of course see why people might be suspicious AI, don’t worry, they’re one of the good ones, will rattle off a list of stuff they now routinely let an AI do and they’re happy about. Just the small stuff, just the boring stuff, just this, just that, and the other thing. Don’t fight it, Ai Is HeRe To StAy.
You won’t get that from artists, only people who are jealous of
their cooler younger brothersthe work artists put into their craft and want the benefits without the work.Bullshit. That’s so fucking elitist. Go ask all the people using midjourney to generate slop if they’re artists. They’re artists as much as vibe coders are programmers.
Unless they have learnt to draw/paint, they’re not artists. Just like people who haven’t learnt how to code are not developers.
Artists are a very broad group that doesn’t have a specific definition.
I mean, is someone doodling on their notebook an artist? They are creating handmade art, are they not?
Creating art is something intrinsically human. Capitalism has destroyed that. Now unless you have skill that you can monetize, you aren’t an artist. When it used to be that anyone who created art, no matter how bad, was an artist.
Okay, and?
I can tell you who’s definitely not an artist: the person who tells others to create their idea. They’re a client.
Then you understand why “actual” developers feel insulted and protest against being part of that ridiculous, malevolent conspiracy theory in the comic.
This shit is trying to rile up an old, stupid “creative vs tech people” war. It’s completely missing who the real enemy is, instead misrepresenting and putting an easy target on the basic nerds like it’s fucking 1980.
It stinks. It’s reactionary bullshit, and they should be ashamed of it. If you still can’t see it, I don’t know what to tell you.
I will still maintain that I have a certain impression from the outside (artists are doing shit about the situation, devs need to get off their asses) which I’d imagine is what others are seeing too.
You see, I’m a “no code” developer. /s
Bunch of disparate thoughts about this. Apologies.
You can’t just purity test an entire profession. Or at least it isn’t reasonable to do so.
You have to dig, but there are artists and authors out there who have positive opinions about AI. I’m sure the folks more active on [email protected] could get a list together of their favorite sneer targets.
All the anti-ai tools are coming from programmers. anubis, iocaine, nepenthes, nightshade, and more.
I’d suggest that it’s worth remembering that a large portion of any online discourse is going to be made up of teenagers, college students, and people new to whatever it is they’re discussing. But almost all of them will talk with an implied authority on whatever subject it is anyway. Many subs on reddit have done demorgraphics polls (or polls that included a question about age) and the results makes the sillier places like relationship advice make a hell of a lot more sense.
I have almost a decade of work experience in IT, more if you count some intro to programming teaching gigs I did. AI coding assistance tools are positioned perfectly to be like crack for early learners, but don’t actually add too much value for more experienced folks (especially not anything can’t be done faster with existing non-ai tools, like an IDE’s code snippets features for repeated boilerplate code, which is the most frequent excuse I see online).
That said, I have literally never met any dev in real life that thinks favorably of AI coding assistance.
What I see more and more is corporate management types being afraid that all the hype for AI coming out of Gartner etc means that if they don’t force their employees to use it they will get left behind as their competitors magically produce more somehow. At that point as an employee your choices are to work to meet whatever shit metric they’ve constructed or give up making a paycheck.
It’s very easy to tell other people they need to be more principled when it’s not your food/shelter/insurance/livelyhood on the line.
And it’s also worth noting that what the current wave of popular AI (LLMs) does best is generate text. So of course you’re going to see text posts online trying to shift the window. That’s the company using their horrific tool as designed. There was evidence of AI bots hyping AI in the programming subs on reddit that got overshadowed by them shutting off third party API access.
AI is only as inevitable for as long as the megacorps can keep funneling money into the pit. The world leader in AI conpanies, OpenAI, is doing so great with money that they are trying to threaten their business partner Microsoft out of roughly $40B. This could all blow up fairly soon. I hope it does.
There absolutely are devs out there who are getting ground down, where there principles are becoming eroded over time.
But like with many things in life, the rabble at the bottom aren’t the ones effecting real long term change, media coverage, corporate adoption, etc. Don’t turn this into some crab pot situation.
Go after the tech reporters continually giving AI the benefit of the doubt. Go after industry steering publications like Gartner. Go after politicians giving AI projects sweetheart deals that allow them to coast by without having to compete fairly based off their actual costs (OpenAI loses money on every request it serves). That allow AI datacenters to continuously violate local laws. That allow the datacenters to pollute their local water table. Go after the management enacting requirements that their subordinates demonstrate how AI is improving their work efficiency on pain of firing. You get the picture.
And sure, call out individuals. But please don’t label us all as a group on this.
EDIT: old man intensifies. And another thing! (to support my point that the corps need to be the target in these discussions):
Companies like Microsoft are resorting to forcing AI features into their products and defaulting those AI features to ON in order to get the user numbers they need to keep justifying the absurd expenditure on AI, and to be able to keep pushing the false narrative into the media of everyone using AI.
These effectively fabricated increases in user numbers from these features being default on means that the impact of individual programmers and devs deciding to use or not use AI are not going to move the needle significantly enough to make a difference.
I’m proud to say that currently my workplace has all this shit disabled on an enterprise level, and firewall blocks preventing using any of it. Unfortunately that will only last as long as it takes for the suits to come up with a sufficiently paranoid acceptable use policy. We’re doing what we can to keep stoking the idea that putting any info into these things is effectively selling it to potential competitors, but that can only go so far against Gartner and the like whispering in the C-suite’s ear.
Anyway. Everyone has a duty to say no to this shit, but all the companies are already using every dirty trick they can to boost the user numbers. If you’re running around under the impression that the absurd user numbers represent true users, and that those users must be comprised entirely of tech workers because artists never would use AI, then you’re looking at a false narrative being pushed by the people who stand to make the most money off this shit. The user numbers are not accurate to begin with.
This is not true. I’ve seen many posts from artists, or at least people who consider themselves as such, praising generative AI as just another tool magicking the boring parts away.
And to be clear, I am not for using gen AI professionally in either of these fields.
Are those the same people saying how AI “democratises” art? And how nice it is that even people with disabilities can now finally make art and how ableistic any and all pushback against AI is? Yeah, that’s the ones I mentioned.
So, where are those in your assessment? Because they clearly aren’t developers.
Sorry, I don’t follow. This may sound like snark in writing, but it’s not meant to be: who is where in what? Who isn’t a developer?
You are starting your point by saying you are perceiving a lot of developers advocating for gen AI. I am saying I don’t see that many actual, professional developers doing so, I actually see a lot who don’t, and I also see a lot of “not developers” who do. Yes, the AI bros are very vocal. They also don’t represent “developers”.
Well, now we’re at the point where we both only have anecdotes and I’d have to take your word over my memories from numerous discussions over the last years. While artists are actively protesting, for non-devs it looks like developers are, in large numbers, at least okay with AI. That’s probably what DevilsPanties is observing. Hence the comic.
Developers have had easy employment for a long time, and it’s only beginning to turn to shit.
We simply aren’t used to protest a lot. It’s starting though. Look at the video game developers starting to unionize, for now it’s still making news when they do.