Not at all saying we shouldn’t look into the abuse, but unless the victim tells someone, there’s no way to know it’s happening? I don’t really get what you’re suggesting here.
I’m suggesting that if the abuse is large enough that it swings entire elections, then it should be looked into as a why it’s happening vs saying we shouldn’t do something about voter fraud because something else might happen.
Spousal abuse is only one concern, also parent/child coercion (you’re an adult now, you can’t live in my house unless you vote the way I want). Another would be buying votes, and using the “receipt” to collect payment.
What’s stopping the abuser from demanding a photo of their filled out ballot? Idk why there’s a huge thread about this hypothetical. Are a certain point you can’t create policy defined by a tiny minority.
there are signs and staff everywhere ensuring that nobody takes photos of anything
and even if you could, you can request another ballot paper
Are a certain point you can’t create policy defined by a tiny minority.
and that is why we run elections like we do: because this system is secure and you don’t need to validate your ballot paper… when you introduce machines like the US has, that exposes huge flaws that poke holes in a very robust system for little gain
the tiny minority is validating your individual vote; not abuse and coercion
Except without self validation you potentially run into tallya being tweaked. Let’s follow the lawsuit, if it turns out tampering happened then what? Saying we can’t introduce measures because of rare domestic abuse issues is silly. Full stop. And I don’t really care to discuss this first with you. It’s starting to feel like you’re on a mission to AstroTurf.
no, it can’t… you validate that your personal submission was correct and then the whole point of the scrutineers etc is to make sure that the tallies are both anonymous and correct
if the US conducted their elections like they should then there is no chance of tallies getting “tweaked” as you put it… this is a non-issue and the solution is not to introduce personal validation: it’s to fix the system
Saying we can’t introduce measures because of rare domestic abuse issues is silly
no, it’s literally the whole point of the voting system: to ensure everyone has a chance to vote freely
It’s starting to feel like you’re on a mission to AstroTurf.
hey mate i’m the one providing explanations and you’re the one just saying no constantly… anonymous ballots is the standard and agreed upon way of running free and fair elections across the entire globe… the system works, and there’s no reason to change it… elections are complex
there is no way for anyone to prove how they voted, so there can be no possible retaliation
think about like… a mafia wanting to control a city government
if there’s no possible way to validate how you voted, they can tell a huge group of people how to vote and you can vote however you like and just say you voted like they wanted: they have no way of knowing either way (same goes for paid votes: they have no way of knowing how you voted so you can vote however you like)
if there’s a way to validate your vote, they can demand your voting slip (or number, or that you show them your validation record) and say they’ll break your legs if you don’t show it… so you vote and say the printer was broken, they’ll probably break your legs regardless (also they’d likely have a way of checking these things… in the case of an abusive relationship, they’d probably accompany you to vote so they’d likely know the status of any hardware like a printer - this isn’t something you can just lie about)
truly nasty organisations and individuals using violence as coercion aren’t likely to just “aw shucks guess i’ll let it go then”. they’re not particularly trusting
now in the current system with no way to validate directly, it doesn’t matter who it is: even the poll workers don’t see your ballot paper… nobody except you sees it. there are no cameras, no people watching over your shoulder, no proof either way after you drop your ballot into the box: you can say whatever you want, and because that’s the standard and known for everyone there no point to anyone saying “prove it”… there’s simply no way, thus there is no way of coercing someone
That would be nice. Hugely impractical. Especially with today’s government. Pretty sure no fault divorce is going to be revoked soon, so it’ll only get worse.
Also, was not suggesting that abusive relationships would be enough to swing the election one way or the other, only that this is a valid concern that needs addressed before any sweeping change.
Not at all saying we shouldn’t look into the abuse, but unless the victim tells someone, there’s no way to know it’s happening? I don’t really get what you’re suggesting here.
I’m suggesting that if the abuse is large enough that it swings entire elections, then it should be looked into as a why it’s happening vs saying we shouldn’t do something about voter fraud because something else might happen.
Spousal abuse is only one concern, also parent/child coercion (you’re an adult now, you can’t live in my house unless you vote the way I want). Another would be buying votes, and using the “receipt” to collect payment.
You could just burn your number then.
and then the coercion is simply you give me your number or i hurt you
there is no way that you can make a system where you are able to validate your vote after the fact, and also is safe from coercion
What’s stopping the abuser from demanding a photo of their filled out ballot? Idk why there’s a huge thread about this hypothetical. Are a certain point you can’t create policy defined by a tiny minority.
there are signs and staff everywhere ensuring that nobody takes photos of anything
and even if you could, you can request another ballot paper
and that is why we run elections like we do: because this system is secure and you don’t need to validate your ballot paper… when you introduce machines like the US has, that exposes huge flaws that poke holes in a very robust system for little gain
the tiny minority is validating your individual vote; not abuse and coercion
Except without self validation you potentially run into tallya being tweaked. Let’s follow the lawsuit, if it turns out tampering happened then what? Saying we can’t introduce measures because of rare domestic abuse issues is silly. Full stop. And I don’t really care to discuss this first with you. It’s starting to feel like you’re on a mission to AstroTurf.
no, it can’t… you validate that your personal submission was correct and then the whole point of the scrutineers etc is to make sure that the tallies are both anonymous and correct
if the US conducted their elections like they should then there is no chance of tallies getting “tweaked” as you put it… this is a non-issue and the solution is not to introduce personal validation: it’s to fix the system
no, it’s literally the whole point of the voting system: to ensure everyone has a chance to vote freely
hey mate i’m the one providing explanations and you’re the one just saying no constantly… anonymous ballots is the standard and agreed upon way of running free and fair elections across the entire globe… the system works, and there’s no reason to change it… elections are complex
Or just say they ran out of paper. Like there are more pros than cons to this system. Nothing is going to be perfect.
and then you get hurt regardless… you think abusive partners or criminal organisations care of the printer ran out of paper?
What’s stopping them from doing this now?
there is no way for anyone to prove how they voted, so there can be no possible retaliation
think about like… a mafia wanting to control a city government
if there’s no possible way to validate how you voted, they can tell a huge group of people how to vote and you can vote however you like and just say you voted like they wanted: they have no way of knowing either way (same goes for paid votes: they have no way of knowing how you voted so you can vote however you like)
if there’s a way to validate your vote, they can demand your voting slip (or number, or that you show them your validation record) and say they’ll break your legs if you don’t show it… so you vote and say the printer was broken, they’ll probably break your legs regardless (also they’d likely have a way of checking these things… in the case of an abusive relationship, they’d probably accompany you to vote so they’d likely know the status of any hardware like a printer - this isn’t something you can just lie about)
truly nasty organisations and individuals using violence as coercion aren’t likely to just “aw shucks guess i’ll let it go then”. they’re not particularly trusting
now in the current system with no way to validate directly, it doesn’t matter who it is: even the poll workers don’t see your ballot paper… nobody except you sees it. there are no cameras, no people watching over your shoulder, no proof either way after you drop your ballot into the box: you can say whatever you want, and because that’s the standard and known for everyone there no point to anyone saying “prove it”… there’s simply no way, thus there is no way of coercing someone
There is, you could demand a photo.
That would be nice. Hugely impractical. Especially with today’s government. Pretty sure no fault divorce is going to be revoked soon, so it’ll only get worse.
Also, was not suggesting that abusive relationships would be enough to swing the election one way or the other, only that this is a valid concern that needs addressed before any sweeping change.