US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who has previously expressed opposition to women serving in combat, has ordered the military to develop gender-neutral physical fitness standards for frontline troops, a memo released Monday said.
“Gender neutral” - conveniently written in a way that emphasizes the athletic feats that men have an advantage in, while downplaying those that women have an advantage in. This will be “gender neutral” in the way that most unisex shirts are. (Ie, just declaring the male as default.) If you wanted to, you could write a “gender neutral” fitness standard that women would pass at ten times the rate men do.
Hell, the US military learned the flaw of relying on averages back during the 1950s.
This is especially wild when you consider that some of the sports / feats women are often if not usually better at include shooting, distance / endurance events, and withstanding high g-forces without losing consciousness, which are way more useful in a modern military than the high jump or javelin throwing.
He’ll, if the requirements were gender neutral, then every astronaut would be a woman based on weight alone.
Even biologically, men are woman if the anti-muellerian hormone is not surpressed during the fetal development.(Usually happens if the gene in males is missing or suppressed that)
Being born with the appendage designed for peeing standing up is significantly more important than all that other stuff you mentioned. Simply having a uterus makes women 10x worse, duh.
Well, yeah. Any uterus on the battlefield is one that isn’t back home gestating the next generation of cannon fodder.
(It’s despicable, but I’m pretty sure that’s how these shit stains actually think.)
Now I’m wondering if there’s a notable combat advantage for having a built in piss tube or not.
What endurance events are women better at?
Also, I was curious about the g-force thing, but any scientific studies I could find had conclusions that there aren’t any significant differences between men and women when it comes to withstanding g-forces.
The real big one is arctic / cold water distance swimming. Women have a higher % body fat on average meaning they float better and are better insulated. Ultramarathon events overall seem to be pretty evenly matched for the most part, but that specific subset has been pretty women dominated. The g force thing applies more specifically to people who are smaller and in particular shorter, which women are on average so in that one weights being equal, no.
Cold weather ultra marathon swimming? That’s really specific, not important for military use, (who is having to free swim for 10+ miles?) and I was having problems trying to find any specific records for cold water ultra marathon swimming. I could find ultra marathon records of swimming in general, but most of those were men.
We need more data, but ultra-marathons could be such events
I could see that being a case. Running for over 100 miles is just insane for anyone.
Reminder that every country that oppresses half of its population and prevents them from having the same access and rights tend to… fail on every societal level. But, they are also the most religious countries, so if that’s what we’re going for over things like infrastructure, jobs and
“safe drinking water”then we’re definitely on the right track.**I’ve been informed that the term “safe drinking water” has been banned.
They can make it as equal as they want–IF they actually align the standards to the fitness needs of each job. But then they might have to admit that office work doesn’t require an 8 minute mile.
Also it doesn’t take much to pull a trigger or to push a button.
This is already a fucking thing. Female soldiers in combat roles meet the same standards as their male counterparts. Most of these women would whoop your ass.
We obviously needs a test that is biased toward males so we can clearly see and point toward female deficiencies.
Men can helicopter penis
Some women can too
Is this that “biological advantage” I hear so much about?
Aerial superiority has decided or at least played a big part in most of the armed conflicts in the last century. So obviously biological aviation is indeed an advantage.
If it’s long enough
And if it is, and he can, that’s a natural born leader right there if I ever saw one. Promote ahead of peers (who can’t helicopter penis). Meritocracy.
Duh!
I want to see him pick a female soldier at random, go 1-on-1 with her in melee combat, get his ass kicked, and repeat until he gets the message.
I think this is reasonable. I met and exceeded the male standards and I’m not particularly big. There’s lots of jobs in the military fitness should be determined by job. I don’t think a file clerk needs to have infrantry levels of fitness. I’m pro gender neutral in military fitness standards but then again I also think women should be drafted.
Was with you till the draft comment. I didn’t think anyone should be drafted. If the people don’t willingly enlist, either your cause is shit, or your benefits don’t offset the risks.
I agree nobody should be drafted, but that’s not reality, so everyone should be forced.
I don’t want to be drafted either but I think there do seem to be cultural benefits to universal conscription and mandatory military service. These countries seem to be much less willing to go to war than countries where only certain classes or groups of people are represented in the military.
Three of the worst offenders, the US, Russia, and Israel, are examples of the latter. The people making the decisions to go to war tend to be in the class or group that avoids military service.
Israel has universal conscription last I knew and they don’t seem to give a hoot about bombing everyone. I don’t think mandatory military service makes them any less willing to go to war.
They don’t. Until June 2024, Ultra-Orthodox Jews (Haredim) were exempt from military services under an arrangement known as Torato Umanuto. Furthermore the draft only applies to male and female Jews, male Druze, and male Circassians in the first place. All other ethnic groups are excluded.
Haredim have historically been very active on the far right of Israeli politics. They’ve made up a significant portion of settlers and have been major proponents of the expansion of settlements. Their loss of draft exemption last year was met with widespread protests but some are hopeful it will eventually contribute to political change. Policies like this are slow to take effect though, and generational prejudices don’t disappear overnight.
I agree that any soldier must meet the demands of “war”. And in any field unit I was ever in (Norwegian Army) you did not share equally in squad/unit tasks. I was above average strong and could carry the MG3 or the Carl Gustav for a longer period than a less strong solider on long marches.
Then again some units like special forces who have a high demand on physical skills might benefit from also having female operators attached for missions that demand a female. Let’s say when operating in cultures where male-female interactions are very socially regulated.
I agree that weapon system technicians on F35 might not need the same level of physical prowess of foot recon soldiers operating deep behind enemy lines.
The Infantry already has a soft standard of scoring higher than minimum. You meet that or you get extra PT, no school slots, no promotions, and may even get transferred out of combat units. But also we’ve seen guys that did 180 (the minimum in 2003) operate perfectly fine in combat. This canard that combat arms needs more than a file clerk is just being used to exclude women. The minimum is actually high enough to operate in combat. Units are doing the higher soft standard because it’s a way to operate at a higher level. But they will deploy someone doing a 180 on their test and put them in a squad that’s fighting in a city after an 8km foot movement. Heck we would rather someone who scored the minimum but can walk with their gear than someone who scored higher but didn’t have that walking endurance.
Lot of good points
This dude is a straight up misogynist, even his mama knows that.
I would be so embarrassed to be that guy’s mom
He should go hand to hand with a female soldier. I’d pay to see her give him a beating.
Knowing these fucks, they’d still try and claim that she was really a secret trans woman when she beat them, just like with Imane Khelif
Probably motivated by the idea that separate standards for men and women is also “woke DEI”. Don’t imagine for a second that their actions are made with good intentions
Regardless if they are, I don’t get why people get so worked up over the different standards for men and women being rewoked. It’s a shitty job anyway.
It’s not a contest to see who is better, it is not a reward for good behavior, it is a necessity. If you have lower standards for women, why not just have lower standards for men too? Same shit.
You can have weaker men serving and get the same results: more people in the army.
If you can’t get into the army, then so fucking what? Making standards for women lower, only makes them equal on paper. In-practice, you are putting a political message over function. You are being run by jealousy where there needs to be none.
Because standards are first and foremost about maintaining a healthy force. Then they find a number that allows for being healthy and operating in combat. That’s the minimum and you get points for going above that, and discharged for not meeting it. I guarantee you they aren’t keeping women around as a DEI thing where they’re only equal on paper.
I don’t care about DEI. But yes, that explains it.
Thank you, you actually changed my view unironically.
The intent is to make military service even less appealing to women.
Step 1: Dramatically restrict who is allowed to volunteer for our volunteer miitary.
Step 2: Bemoan that the US no longer has a standing military large enough to support its interests.
Step 3: Here comes the draft again.
Step 4: Wait a bit and all your undesirables age out or are driven out of the military.
Step 5: Well I’m not sure about this one, but you’ve got a big army full of the only people you really want to have any power, personal autonomy, or decent standard of living anyway; I’m sure you can find something to do with it.
I feel like it’s less about putting people in power (although it may do that to a certain extent) and more about reinforcing the role of poor and minority men as disposable tools. War is a means for the rich and powerful to squabble over resources, but it’s also a way for them to exert their control over a large population of men. One of my bigger feminist sticking points on the topic of how patriarchy hurts men is that its not just about controlling women, its also about creating a class of men who are disposable by convincing them that it’s either for the benefit of women and / or to help them control women too (which it does a little, it’s just that most of that power is still going to a small subset of men).
That’s a great point and much better thought out than my own! 💯
Well, and this what men are getting to when they get upset about men’s rights and bring up the draft right? It’s genuinely something they should be mad about they’re just misdirecting their anger.
I’ve thought about this one a lot; there’s several fanfics I’ve written that touch on this; one is an alternate of historical fictions and the other involves the Drow from the forgotten realms. There’s this tendency (especially in erotic media) for matriarchal societies to have women act more masculine and sexually aggressive and have men crawling around on the floor in excrement and it always bugs me. There’s so many existing negative stereotypes of men and positive stereotypes of women that could just be inversely accentuated to create that kind of society. I could talk for days about that one, LOL.
It also partially eliminates potential uprising from men, if they are all used as cannon fodder.
I don’t like to comment to much on the military since its what I’ve done most of my adult life and I’ve seen a lot of changes in the last 25 years. The ACFT took almost 20 years to develop so unless they just go back to the APFT or the Marine Corps fitness test and only use the men’s criteria the test won’t be ready before he’s gone.
Based on what we’ve seen so far, I really think they’ll just use the men’s criteria.
Ironically, when I was in I thought it was really unfair that the women could openly grow long hair and just tuck it under their cover and the men could not.
I’m ashamed to say that back then I took it as an example of women wanting special treatment, when I’m sure in retrospect that it was nothing of the sort.
You forgot step 4.5, starve and under train 90 percent of your military while a super loyal 10 percent get the best training and rations in a Republican Guard.
I’m one step ahead by being too out of shape to be drafted
Checkmate
Than it already is, the SA that get swept under the rug, because it might hurt a officers chance of staying in the service is already a detterant
Military service is already pretty unappealing to any empathetic human being imo
OK…what exactly does that have to do with gender based fitness tests?
You don’t see how a comment about military service being generally unappealing relates to your comment about something making military service less appealing to women specifically?
Rico didn’t know what he had laid before him. Too smitten on “Tiger blood’s” ex.
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Ok, so this guy is a known misogynist, and is likely to twist this into something that gives women an objective disadvantage. With that said, I want to ask what makes people opposed to the idea of actually gender-neutral physical requirements for military positions.
Personally, I served in the Norwegian army alongside a bunch of very capable women. I think women in the army bring a big positive contribution. There’s even research suggesting that women are better suited than men for certain combat roles. With that established, is it not fair to require that a woman in the infantry is capable of carrying the same kit, or wounded partner, as her male counterparts? I’ve done my fair share of ammo runs, and the women in my platoon carried just as heavy shells as the men. If they hadn’t been capable of that, I would say they simply weren’t qualified for the job.
I don’t know what current requirements are in the US military. What I’m questioning is why so many people here seem opposed to the idea that anyone in a physically demanding role meets the same base criteria?
Mostly because there are many different roles that apply to “front line troops.” The traits that work great for running ammo boxes all day are different from the traits to carry a 200 pound dude a few hundred feet. The traits to shoot accurately are different from the traits to assemble and deploy explosives. The traits to drive a tank are different from the traits to work the comms.
More importantly, though, is that this isn’t JUST choosing one set of standards. This will absolutely be “choosing one set of standards with very high bars in certain categories.” There are things women just do not do as well as men, and we all know those will be areas that are emphasized and with difficult to reach goals. There are things women do better than men, and we all know those areas will be de-emphasized with very easy to reach goals.
I agree with the sentiment that different roles have different specific requirements- a tank driver doesn’t need to be as strong or fast as an infantryman. However, there are some base requirements that apply to all front-line troops. No matter your role, if you are expected to see combat, you need to be at a certain level with regards to weapons handling, but also physical strength and endurance. Even a tank driver, medic or radio operator may need to fire a gun, carry wounded, or help push a jeep upright.
Still, I agree that there are different requirements for different specialities, and definitely think it is a good idea to have different requirements for these in the selection process. However, I can’t see a compelling argument saying that the base requirements for male and female tank drivers, medics, infantry, etc. should be different. I think the tank crew is an especially good example here, because research on Norwegian soldiers has indicated that women are (on average) better suited to this role, because they are often better at handling high cognitive load while exhausted. Putting the same requirements for everyone, with requirements tuned to the specialisation, could very well lead to more women in certain roles.
Of course, for your second point, I think that falls under the category of “everything is bad if poorly implemented”. I definitely agree that it’s a bad idea to place very hard baseline physical requirements for all roles. That means the military will lose out on highly capable medics, tank crews, radio operators, etc. both male and female. But as you say, more of the capable people lost will be women, simply because of biology. However, I think that’s more a question about how requirements for the military should be implemented, and not really a question of “should we place the same requirements on men and women in the same role?” to which I think, on general grounds, the answer should be yes.
To be clear - I have no doubts that the people pushing this in the current administration intend to leverage it to push highly capable women out of roles they are more than capable of filling, and that’s an unambiguously bad thing.
Oh the current standards in the US military are absolutely enough to make sure women can carry their load. Hegseth is a massive misogynist who believes women shouldn’t be in combat for all kinds of unscientific reasons.
Why are they so concerned with gender?
How can anything be gender neutral in the 2 sex states of america?
Isn’t anything gender neutral against the decreed dei laws of emperor king god trump all mighty?
Can we verify hegseth is a man?
Does PICKLED PETE pee sitting down in a gender neutral way?
Does PICKLED PETE and his pickled pecker use a gender neutral bathroom?
Why does PICKLED PETE pick a pack of Pabst to pound in private?
edit: Oh god i hadnt seen somehow a community on lemmy.world was in my feed again. enjoy your cesspool
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edit: Oh god i hadnt seen somehow a community on lemmy.world was in my feed again. enjoy your cesspool
I would find a wave of advancing pissed off mama bears absolutely terrifying.
They have a point on that one. The point of the army is to defend your country, not to look like a cool warrior. It’s not even about hate.
Which is precisely why the Army came up with ACFT 20 years of war in the middle east taught us what soldier need to be combat effective, so let’s just keep it.
I’m not going to down vote you over it because most people outside the military don’t know. But the Army just spent 10 years making a fitness test that more closely resembles combat tasks. Hegseth is not saying this in good faith.
So they make them pass the combat standard anyway? So this was all pointless?
Yup. Every soldier needs to be able to fight. The last 20 years has seen enemies actively avoid attacking combat arms units and going after traditionally non combat units wherever possible. That and the ability to press anyone into the frontline is why everyone needs to be able to pass the test.
Also, to make things even more interesting, combat units already hold their soldiers to a soft standard that’s higher than non combat units. You won’t get discharged for not meeting it but you will do extra exercises, get held back on promotions, and not go to schools for additional skills. If they thought their women weren’t making the standard they literally just wouldn’t promote them, and they’d highly encourage them to change jobs.
This is one of those things that really depends on how it’s implemented. If they just abolish the female scoring column and force everyone to use the male scoring column then there are so many more questions. Will women be judged 1 to 1 against men? or will promotion boards develop an idea of where women should score on the male column? Are they going to get rid of age too and just score everyone as if they were 18 still? Is this going to be a new test for all services?
PT tests have already been undergoing a lot of changes recently. And the one thing that combat arms troops have asked for is simply a score one must meet to be in a combat unit that isn’t age or gender scaled. The minimum we would ask of someone in such a unit, such as marching 12 miles in 3 hours with a standard rucksack. This would be separate from the general test which is scaled and meant to make sure we maintain a physically healthy force.
I don’t think that’s what fuckhead and company have planned though.
All entry-level and sustained physical fitness requirements within combat arms positions must be sex-neutral, based solely on the operational demands of the occupation and the readiness needed to confront any adversary
This tells me they want to change the general physical fitness test in combat units, the same test used to promote people, decide who goes to schools, and can lead to being discharged if you continually fail it. This is not what we asked for. For those unaware the military has been working on overhauling physical fitness tests to more closely resemble combat tasks for nearly a decade now. This has been a measured and science based project until now. And the part that tells me it isn’t going to be that anymore is when the Secretary of Defense believes he knows what the operational demands of any specific combat unit are. And says this like it hasn’t been what the military has been doing.
And before some keyboard warrior comes through here talking about upper body strength to carry wounded people under fire you should know that 20 plus years ago in Infantry Basic Training we were told you don’t do that. You make the area safe and then you roll their ass onto a stretcher, you tie them down and literally drag them out. And since then we’ve gotten much better drag stretchers because that is by far the preferred method to get casualties to a vehicle. We’ve also had women in frontline units for over a decade now. Even in 2003 while they were officially banned, we brought their units to the frontline because we needed them. Even in a peer to peer combat posture. As a combat infantry veteran I would far far rather have a woman in my patrol that has been trained to work with us because we’ve recognized it’s something we need; than I would have a woman that I need but also have to train under fire because we put our heads in the ground to satisfy some stupid fucking civilian idea of machismo.
Heh. 30 years ago we had female troopies who could carry my ass across a field in a fireman carry with one hand free. That was a requirement, and the women in training at that time were all hard as hell and easily capable of doing that.
You all got stretchers, eh?
Yeah, we did also practice other ways but it wasn’t a requirement. Our requirements were grinding endurance stuff like pack all your stuff and carry it 12 miles. Then do a running rifle qual. (You’re running until it’s your turn to shoot, or really more like shuffling in this case)
And the women were certainly hard, they just didn’t get the same level of training because civilians couldn’t handle the thought of them fighting. Which is ridiculous. They ended up on the front lines anyway, just less prepared.
