I am not sure 1.5m Germans all deciding on a single course of action is something to be happy about.
Why? Can you explain a little bit?
I am not sure if you are a student of history but twice before the Germans decided to go to war and have as their foe the world.
We happily take the blame for WW2, but WW1 is on Austria!
It was a quote from Norm Macdonald, comedy - look it up if German search engines lower themselves with such humourous returns. The Germans are what they are, today they fought against appeasement and led a European announcement of greatly increased defense spending to support Ukraine and the world more widely, a difficult and noble decision. Filling the gap left as the US falls ever further into shame.
Home solar indicates a massive management failure of public utilities. If it is more cost effective and more pleasant to generate your own electricity without any economies of scale, something is very wrong.
Source: I live in California where the “public” utility is an absolute disaster that charges $.60-$.70/kW/hr so anybody who can afford the upfront cost of solar has done so.
Microgeneration makes way more sense to me. If you generate the power where it is used without pollution, we should. The unfortunate piece is we have to many landlords who’s interest are too divorced from their tenets to put up more microgeneration
These microinverters aren’t made of fairy dust. Doing this stuff at utility scale uses a lot less nasty minerals and chemicals.
Transformers, power lines, roads, trucks, and maintenance teams to move from large scale plants to houses also doesn’t grow on trees, but if maintenance in remote places doesn’t happen it can burn a lot of them.
Sometimes large scale plants make sense, but as the back up too microgeneration where the costs of infrastructure to move from unpopulated to populus areas make sense.
I am also a fan of less inverted power in microgeneration though. More and more of power usage is DC anyways. The need to convert to AC as much IMHO, but that is my far more radical take
microgeneration purely in DC only really makes sense in stuff like campers and RV’s where you’re going to be using primarily nearby, low power consumption devices.
AC is still better, plus modern switching technology while still fairly expensive, is considerably more efficient now. If you’re doing AC you also get a number of other benefits, notably, literally every existing appliance and device uses and works with AC voltages, the entire standard around electricity and home wiring is based on AC mains, all of the accessible hardware is also produced for AC mains, not that you can’t use it for something else, it’s just not intended for that.
Certain appliances will use induction motors, and similar other tech (clocks for example, often use the frequency of the power grid to keep time) based directly on the AC sinewave. You could still run them on DC, it’s just significantly sillier. Plus transmission efficiency is a BIG loss in DC (even now with modern solid state switching components, it’s still just, not ideal), granted thats less of a problem on a micro grid scale, it’s still a concern and potential restriction, nothing beats the simplicity and reliability of a simple wire wound iron core transformer. There are a handful of other technical benefits, and drawbacks as well, but fairly minor.
Having a dedicated DC supply side might be nice for a home environment, but the question is what do you standardize on? DC/DC voltage conversion is fairly efficient as it is already. Converting from AC/DC is incredibly easy and not particularly inefficient at lower power consumption, it’s more of a problem with higher draw devices. But you can easily get around that by using a higher voltage to convert down from.
Agreed. I maybe a radical DC home evangelist but yeah AC has its place still and it being THE standard for home appliances is a good example of the powers of scale.
So far for my home usage I’m standardizing on 48vdc because that is the last multiple of 12 before you go above OSHAs low voltage regs.
From there I really want to standardize further on the power delivery spec, because I just love the idea of smart grid for my home. I can then have dispered batteries in my home for either the primary benefits of that device is portable but doesn’t always need to be (laptop, power tool batteries, little robot thing, car, etc) or as a way to reduce some crazy limited time power draw (like servers starting up, oven running for an hour a day, etc).
From there maybe just Microadapter for a few standard circuits so the outlets work the same.
yeah, i’m definitely not as aggressive on that, but then again i also dont really like having a lot things on my network, or connected to my grid, so i suppose i just sort of optimize that problem out. Plus like i said, convenience, running 120v and 240v is going to be significantly more beneficial for me since i primarily use high wattage draw devices that would benefit from more efficient transmission and conversion (servers and any high power switching power supply basically) i’ve thought about doing a low voltage network, but that really only seems like it’s going to be a bigger mess, for no real significant gain, i have to have central DC conversion and regulation now? I’m just not sure it’s worth it, unless i’m pulling it straight from a dedicated battery bank or something, but that doesn’t really make any sense to me. I might end up using lower voltage LED products for a lot of lighting, but i think i would rather have a handful of high quality high efficiency power supplies, rather than a global one and some weird ass 48v system where i need to convert from AC natively, unless i’m doing some really weird shit, and then down/up convert to any device as needed. It seems like a bit much for removing the AC conversion part of the problem, but that’s just me i guess.
One of the nice things about 120/240 is that our grid is sort of designed for it, so there are some clever ways you can go about utilizing it appropriately. Certain plug specs use both hot/live legs, and neutral (plus ground) so you can technically pull 120/240 voltage out of a single plug, which is quite the trick. You could also fairly easily wire up both of these in more standardized outlet receptacles as well. (although i dunno what the electric code looks like for this one)
My ultimate goal would be doing a decentralized off grid production/storage solution, so high efficiency on higher draws is going to be really important, as well as the ability to standardize on a widely accepted voltage standard. The only real advantage i can think of to using DC grid, is that it would be safer, but like, that’s a solved problem so idk.
personally im not huge on smart grid stuff, though i like the idea of smart grid management, being able to do “useful” things with excess generated power, or pull from storage banks at will given a certain rule set defined under a smart home system is way too convenient to ignore.
Reducing the money spent on DC-AC conversion is my main thoughts. If my power generated is all DC, my battery storage is all DC, my servers are DC, my lights, and water pumps can be DC, my car is DC, then switching from AC to just switch back to DC 20-40 feet just doesn’t make sense to me.
I would like to actually find a better formula then the napkin math I’ve done to say when it does and doesn’t have benefit.
Really want to get my hands on a Open compute Rack for my next server build and have the UPS and power rail be all 48v too (as per spec). Again why have another component to possibly fail and use power if I don’t need it.
This is really nice! This is the future!
I’d love to know how much they produce, especially during the winter/monthly.
not very much, especially during the winter, the best way to optimize panel production is by pointing it towards the sun most effectively, the farther north, or south, of the equator the less effective it is, the less directly it points towards the sun in general, the less power you make.
It might still produce a decent amount of power overall, through a reasonable period of time, but it’s probably WELL below what you could be making with an optimized install, especially one with solar tracking, granted some solar power is still better than no solar power, so you do get tradeoffs at the end of the day.
as another commenter said, there are solar power calculators out there, if you’re looking for rough figures, use them.
Thanks for the input, but I yet have to find a calculator that shows how much you generate per month and not only oer year!
im pretty sure most of the will do a yearly breakout over the months? A really big reason to use them is to figure out maximum and minimum production throughout the year, so idk what calculator you’re using, but any good ones should be able to calculate that.
I’ve used PVwatts before, and it does spit out monthly data, though it can also bring in some more complex data, it’s a whole field of research, and it’s worth investing time into if you’re curious about it.
Hey thank you! I re-checked out PVwatts (the link was used ☺️I probably avoided it because you have to put your address in, I don’t want calls etc. Turns out the city is enough) it’s exactly what I needed, thanks!
it requires you to put in your address to locate your lat and long so it can properly calculate your energy production, especially throughout the year. It may still do some tracking on that, but it’s unlikely to be anything significant unless you have an account and money tied to it somehow.
But yes, a place close by you will work just as fine. Though you can expect some level of inaccuracy, it’s probably not that significant if you’re reasonably close.
Yes and thanks again, there are soo many crap sites out there I just gave up!
By putting the solar panel at a 90 degree angle though it is much less efficient than e.g. a 45 degree angle.
Less efficient than not having them?
Wrong question. The right question is: is the solar panel able to be CO2 neutral (at least) or CO2 negative. We don’t get anything out of it if producing the solar panel costs more CO2 emissions than it saves by producing electricity.
Before you ask: I don’t know the answer. I was looking into this thread in hope to find it.
“Plug-in solar is part of the whole array of options,”
I don’t understand how this works? For our system we need an inverter that cost about $3000.- (half if it doesn’t have to handle a battery), and it needs to be installed by an authorized electrician.
For a small system as the one shown, the price of panels are peanuts, the 2 panels shown should cost less than $150 combined. While the cost of inverter and getting it connected is way way higher. There’s a lot more to this than not being on the roof!?! But which isn’t disclosed.The article says nothing about how the power from those panels is made usable.
If you pay 3000€ for an inverter then that’s probably included installing and whatnot. You can get a cheap 50€ 4kW inverter on aliexpress, or an expensive 500€ 10kW one.
No the price was not including installation, We have 11.2 kW panels and 7.5 kWh batteries. Installation was almost $5000.- !! That was probably mostly the 28 panels on the roof. But we had one installer handling everything, who was also responsible for the electrician.
That’s a massive installation though! Wow!
Also, you got a biig roof!
When we bought the house, that was one of the parameters on our list for “the perfect house”. So the roof to the garden is also almost perfectly towards the south. 😀
Even in January we’ve made 41% of our power consumption from the solar panels. 😎 You are right that it is a bit oversized according to “normal” recommendations which are 8 kWh for a house the size of ours, but we went a bit bigger in preparation for air to water heat pump, so warming the house will be electric, (currently wood pellets), and also we plan to buy an electric car within the next 2 years.Also it was a bit for fun, because of the movie spinal tap, so our panels go to 11 instead of just 10, because we need that little bit extra. 😋
Smart planning! Thanks for the story, are you planning to go off grid or is it just to be economically free? Any batteries in the future? Excellent reference, and implementation, I’m giving you an 11 out of ten!
Thanks. 😀
Going off grid was absolutely a consideration, but only for a very short while. There are too many downsides. We would need twice as much solar capacity, and a way bigger battery, and batteries are still pretty expensive, but even with that, we would still need a generator. And we wouldn’t be able to sell surplus energy. It would more than double the cost, and only provide 25% better self sufficiency for the whole year than we have now.
We live in Denmark, and we can risk to have to go through almost all of December with only a few days sun. Running a diesel generator for power would be both noisy and smelly, It would also require more work to maintain, and it would actually cost slightly more to us a generator than to simply buy the electricity from the grid.Remember doubling our capacity will not bring us from 41 to 82% self sufficiency. Because there is some loss in storage, and even double our battery capacity would not be enough to store 48 kWh like we made today in the span of only 7 hours. (Today was the best day of the year yet. 😎)
Even in January on a perfect day, we can make twice what we use, but such days are rare in January. (we use about 15 kWh per day.)The final problem with a generator is that we would never be able to achieve remotely the stability we have with the grid. We’ve been living here for 6½ year, and the power has only been out once!!!
The problem with making it bigger than we have at all, is that after you’ve reached a point of above 50% self sufficiency, you are entering the area of diminishing returns quickly. On a yearly basis we are about 72% self sufficient. To reach that extra 22% probably cost 50% extra.
This is if you live as high north as we do, because the extra capacity is only usable in the winter, in the summer it’s all surplus, and you get so little for selling the power it’s basically irrelevant. There is too much solar now, so when solar panels have high yields, prices often go down to almost zero.
Going off grid is a lot easier if you live further south.
Thanks again for all the information!
Yeah, going off grid is a whole philosophical idea in itself, way smarter to share with the grid if you’re not in some very specific situation IMO.
I always thought that those calculations about solar was a bit bogus, like you extrapolate the earnings today over say 12 years to pay off an installation, of course it will get cheaper in the future and as more people have solar, revenu goes down too. Seems you solidify that idea!
Today though it starts to be almost a criminally good investment… Living in an appartment I seriously think I might get one of those balcony panels this year, just gotta check out how it actually works when ju inject that into the system. We redid all the electricity so we have separate lines for about everything, will the sun powered line hop over to another one (they are after all all tied together at the central input) and how many amps can you allow to flow “backwards” like that and so on.
